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View Poll Results: where do you rank dempsey?
top 5 33 31.13%
top 10 39 36.79%
top 15 20 18.87%
top 20 5 4.72%
top 25 4 3.77%
not even in my top 100 5 4.72%
Voters: 106. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 06-18-2007, 12:39 PM   #61
janitor
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Default Re: Where do you rank Jack Dempsey??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Homicidal Hank
It's easy to name 25 heavyweights who were better than Dempsey: Muhammad Ali, Larry Holmes, George Foreman, Sonny Liston, Joe Frazier, Mike Tyson, Lennox Lewis, Riddick Bowe, Evander Holyfield, Vitali Klitschko, Michael Spinks, Ken Norton, Ron Lyle, Earnie Shavers, James Douglas, Tim Witherspoon, Tony Tucker, Floyd Patterson, Earnie Terrell, Joe Louis, Cleveland Williams, Zora Folley, Ezzard Charles, Rocky Marciano, Eddie Machen, Jersey Joe Walcott, Jack Johnson, and Gene Tunney. (Actually, I think that's more than 25....)
Now justify why they are all better.

Clearly some of them have inferior resume's.
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Old 06-18-2007, 12:46 PM   #62
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Default Re: Where do you rank Jack Dempsey??

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Originally Posted by janitor
If we are ranking the greatest fighters over the past 100 years then surely the fighters should be ranked acording to how efective they were under the rule set of their own time.
I agree. However, in head to head match-ups, you can't use that argument. It has to be judge on how you think the fight would go.

I personally have two seperatetop 10 lists. One for the modern and another the classic era. This means that people like Roy Jones or Winky Wright come nowhere in one list, whilst Bob Fitzsimmons scrapes the top 80.
Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor
If you grade them on how they would fair under the curent rule set then you are efectively taking a rule set from a random point in time and biasing the results in favour of fighters from that time.
Well, yeah. I would even it out and say that if it's under classic rules, the modern boxer has a disadvantage. In head to head match-ups, rules have got to e taken into account though.
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Originally Posted by janitor
Briggs has pleanty of power but not much else. So did Jess Willard and Carl Moriss and look what good it did them.
Neither as much as Briggs though. A Willard knocked Dempsey down, whereas I wouldn't say Morris came close to being as powerful as Briggs.
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Originally Posted by janitor
The reason that Tunney knocked Dempsey down while they did not was because he had superb boxing technique and could tag Dempsey with shots he did not see coming.
Fair enough. Just out of interest, what other cases do you apply this to? Lewis/McCall, Lewis/Rahman, amongst others, I presume?
Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor
Virtualy every heavyweight champion has been droped by sombody with much less power than Briggs and it has not got him verry far.
Briggs' record isn't bad. Considering he has asthma, which granted, isn't an excuse, he has had a good career. Heavyweight champion, beaten some good fights and has had a good run recently.
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Old 06-18-2007, 01:11 PM   #63
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Default Re: Where do you rank Jack Dempsey??

You my friend are round the bend guys like tubbs and rahman were better then dempsey,what a silly thing to say.
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Old 06-18-2007, 01:34 PM   #64
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Default Re: Where do you rank Jack Dempsey??

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Originally Posted by dmt
No Tunney is way better then Moorer. Moorer more comparable to Gibbons
Moorer and Tunney are different but on the same level. Moorer was bigger, faster and hit harder. Tunney had better defense, technique and timing. Both were skilled boxers

A fight between the 2 would be a toss up.
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Old 06-18-2007, 01:54 PM   #65
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Default Re: Where do you rank Jack Dempsey??

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Originally Posted by janitor
He also made some of the worst films of all time.

This should count against his legacy.
True. Nothing like Jack Roper in "The Quiet Man" making his mark
on film history.

Last edited by OLD FOGEY; 06-18-2007 at 02:14 PM.
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Old 06-18-2007, 01:57 PM   #66
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Default Re: Where do you rank Jack Dempsey??

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Originally Posted by Rattler
We know Wills and Langford were great, but how great? We can't really be sure. It's not their fault they didn't get the chance to fight Dempsey, but who's to say that Dempsey doesn't just dispatch of them easily and make the argument moot? It's possible.
Sure, but the reverse is also possible. Who knows? And since it's Dempsey (or Tex Rickard) who was unwilling to fight the best blacks of his era and not the other way around, those fights not happening are Dempsey's fault and can't be held against Wills and Langford.
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Old 06-18-2007, 02:04 PM   #67
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Default Re: Where do you rank Jack Dempsey??

Maybe they were not as good as people think then,maybe they were looked at and insted of dempsey being scared like ive read loads of times,he felt they had nothing and thus did not fight them,what footage is there of them?,how would you all rate them,and being honest,do you think they would have beat a prime dempsey?
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Old 06-18-2007, 02:10 PM   #68
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Default Re: Where do you rank Jack Dempsey??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Homicidal Hank
It was the closest to my answer, which is somewhere between 100 and 75... maybe.

I make no bones about it: I am unimpressed with Dempsey. Firpo couldn't fight worth a shit, and Dempsey hardly looked brilliant against him. Willard was a big farmboy. Hardly a fair fight (Johnson obviously took a dive). Gibbons had Dempsey tied up in knots. Carpentier - in a sin of a mismatch - staggered Dempsey. Dempsey lost huge to the best fighter he ever fought - Gene Tunney - and Gene was a light heavyweight who was mugged by Harry Greb (twice, it appears). Dempsey had to foul his way to the rematch with Tunney. Oh, and he was sparked in a single round by Fireman Jim Flynn.

The heavyweight division was sad sack of talent back then. Dempsey was the best they had for a while - the best of about as big a bunch of non-scientists as there likely ever was. Tunney would have been slaughted in the 1960s heavyweight division. Dempsey was good as a toughman, but to count him among the elite of the division is to way overrated him.

I would have been surprised if you put a white man in your Top 100...


(except Duran)
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Old 06-18-2007, 02:17 PM   #69
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Default Re: Where do you rank Jack Dempsey??

Dempsey at his peak was deadly. He was past it in the Tunney fights. He was quick and had excellent punches. His left hook was great. He would get inside and demolish a lot of fighters. Read his scientific boxing book. He was an intelligent fighter. The best white Heavy of all time in my eyes.
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Old 06-18-2007, 02:20 PM   #70
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Default Re: Where do you rank Jack Dempsey??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Homicidal Hank
Here's another 25 + fighters who were better than Jack Dempsey: Jerry Quarry, Gerry Cooney, Tony Tubbs, Greg Page, Jimmy Ellis, George Chuvalo, Pinklon Thomas, Nino Valdes, Tommy Farr, Trevor Berbick, Frank Bruno, Archie Moore, Ray Mercer, Michael Moorer, Shannon Briggs, Roy Jones Jr., James Toney, Hasim Rahman, Wlad Klitschko, Michael Dokes, Ingemar Johnanson, David Tua, Gerrie Coetzee, Sam Peter, Tommy Morrison, Andrew Golota
You forgot Lamar Clark.

Last edited by OLD FOGEY; 06-18-2007 at 03:15 PM.
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Old 06-18-2007, 02:26 PM   #71
Luigi1985
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Default Re: Where do you rank Jack Dempsey??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Homicidal Hank
Here's another 25 + fighters who were better than Jack Dempsey: Jerry Quarry, Gerry Cooney, Tony Tubbs, Greg Page, Jimmy Ellis, George Chuvalo, Pinklon Thomas, Nino Valdes, Tommy Farr, Trevor Berbick, Frank Bruno, Archie Moore, Ray Mercer, Michael Moorer, Shannon Briggs, Roy Jones Jr., James Toney, Hasim Rahman, Wlad Klitschko, Michael Dokes, Ingemar Johnanson, David Tua, Gerrie Coetzee, Sam Peter, Tommy Morrison, Andrew Golota




Moorer? Everyone who knows me here knows that Moorer is one of my favourite fighters, but, cīmon, donīt be ridiculous, Dempsey beat better fighters and would be much better head-to-head. Toney, what did this fighter beside trash talking? At HW not much. Cooney, the overrated hyped up white hope, Jones Jr., a man with 1 HW fight, Golota, another "Could have, should have, would have, etc." but didnīt, Dokes, a coke addict with a best win over Weaver, etc., I could go on, you showed once again that youīre the most biased poster here on ESB...
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Old 06-18-2007, 02:29 PM   #72
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Default Re: Where do you rank Jack Dempsey??

luigi is that greb in ur avataar?
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Old 06-18-2007, 02:30 PM   #73
Luigi1985
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Default Re: Where do you rank Jack Dempsey??

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Originally Posted by Bad_Intentions
luigi is that greb in ur avataar?

No, itīs Mario Bosisio, pretty good fighter, here, look:


[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
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Old 06-18-2007, 02:36 PM   #74
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Default Re: Where do you rank Jack Dempsey??

Quote:
Originally Posted by joe33
Maybe they were not as good as people think then,maybe they were looked at and insted of dempsey being scared like ive read loads of times,he felt they had nothing and thus did not fight them,what footage is there of them?,how would you all rate them,and being honest,do you think they would have beat a prime dempsey?
Jack Dempsey was offered a fight with Sam Langford a few years before Jack won the heavyweight title.....'I think Sam Langford was the greatest fighter we ever had',' said Dempsey in 1970. When Langford's name was mentionned he turned him down flat. 'Not me! Goodbye!' he said. 'He was a great fighter and I didn't have the experience to fight a man like that. Even at my best I don't know whether I could have licked him or not.'

Dempsey was willing to fight Wills, and in 1922 he signed to do so, but Tex Rickard kept finding ways of avoiding the fight. Once, Dempsey's lawyers even paid Wills $50.000 in compensation. I'm not saying that Dempsey himself was perse unwilling to fight these guys when he had the title, but it's clear that he didn't consider the result of a possible fight with either of these guys a foregone conclusion and the people around him clearly considered fighting these guys too big of a risk.
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Old 06-18-2007, 02:54 PM   #75
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Default Re: Where do you rank Jack Dempsey??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Homicidal Hank
Here's another 25 + fighters who were better than Jack Dempsey: Jerry Quarry, Gerry Cooney, Tony Tubbs, Greg Page, Jimmy Ellis, George Chuvalo, Pinklon Thomas, Nino Valdes, Tommy Farr, Trevor Berbick, Frank Bruno, Archie Moore, Ray Mercer, Michael Moorer, Shannon Briggs, Roy Jones Jr., James Toney, Hasim Rahman, Wlad Klitschko, Michael Dokes, Ingemar Johnanson, David Tua, Gerrie Coetzee, Sam Peter, Tommy Morrison, Andrew Golota
With all due respect I could name a thousand fighters and say that they were better than Jack Dempsey but justifying it would be another matter.

So how exactly are they better than Dempsey?

Obviously not in terms of resume because most of them were foot notes in their respective eras.

So the only way that they could even theoreticaly be better than Dempsey is head to head. Of course head to head rankings suffer from the weakness that they are entirely speculative.

Lets face it we can't all be right on these fantasy match ups.
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