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Old 12-21-2010, 07:50 AM   #31
groove
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Default Re: Liston-Clay I; Where the money went?

still shows liston would be better off winning the championship back than going for any fix. being champ is where the money is at unless you can provide evidence of big betting pay outs to liston or his camp. liston just couldn't handle ali and quit once again in the 2nd fight after being knockdown by a legit punch he didn't see.
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Old 12-21-2010, 10:43 AM   #32
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Default Re: Liston-Clay I; Where the money went?

Quote:
Originally Posted by groove View Post
still shows liston would be better off winning the championship back than going for any fix.
I'm not so sure about that. It's not really about Liston, it's about the people who controlled him and who had built up a "legit" promotional cartel on the back of him.

What do they do with Sonny if he wins the title back ? A fight with Chuvalo ? Would anyone really want that fight badly ? And Liston would still have trouble getting licensed in the major fight centres, champion or not.
Liston-Patterson III was out of the question.
Even in 1962 commentators were saying Liston might face an "unprofitable reign".

Guiys like Terrell and Jones were dull. Imagine Liston-Terrell in some backwood like Maine, minimal TV interest. It would be horrible. I mean, Clay was colourful, AND controversial, and it still wasn't glamourous when Liston was on stage.
They at least got to squeeze another big fight out of Floyd Patterson, had him play the "good guy" to Clay's new "bad guy" image, two younger fighters, Olympic golden boys.
Liston was just a washed-up thug now, a pariah really, he was not longer useful, no longer wanted. Ali/Clay was the future.

Quote:
being champ is where the money is at unless you can provide evidence of big betting pay outs to liston or his camp. liston just couldn't handle ali and quit once again in the 2nd fight after being knockdown by a legit punch he didn't see.
If you look at his immediate reaction, Ali was disgusted that Liston had gone over from that punch. He screamed at him to get up.
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Old 12-21-2010, 11:03 AM   #33
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Default Re: Liston-Clay I; Where the money went?

MR. UN,

Correct on all counts.
A victory by Sonny Liston over Cassius Clay in Lewiston, Maine would have been a
disaster for the boxing business, unless he flat out knocked him out with in a
legitimate fight.
Any controversy in regaining the title, and the Senate Investigating Committe would have shut boxing down.
Sonny Liston was only licensed in a handfull of states, and Inter-Continental Promotions
would not be able to get state sanctioning to promote a fight, the promotion team is where the money was.
So a win by Sonny Liston in Lewiston, Maine, would have been like having the
winning lottery ticket, but unable to cash it in, as the stores (State Boxing Commissions)
were all closed.

Absolutely no money to be made, with Ernie Terrell, Eddie Machen or George Chuvalo.
Those fights would have been lucky to do 1/3 revenue of the Liston-Clay or Ali-Liston
fights.
The promoters (I-C-P) would have taken the 'proverbial bath'.
I actually have I-C-P's revenue projections for those fights.
The only place to go was Las Vegas, and they would not approve a Liston-Patterson III fight. And they were not interested in any of the Top 4 challengers.
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Old 01-05-2011, 08:11 PM   #34
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Default Re: Liston-Clay I; Where the money went?

Dave,

Several conflicting reports about Sonny Listons injury to his shoulder.

1) Reports by the Associated Press, and followed up the New York Times, that
Sonny Liston stopped training for 4-days, due to an infllamed shoulder.
3-days in early February and on the 17th.

2) Reports of several visits to the St. Francis Hospital and prescribed rest by his Personal Physician,
Dr. Robert C. Bennett.

3) Jack Nilon, first reported he had heard Sonny's shoulder 'pop' in the 1st Round,
when attempting to throw a big left hook. But that couldn't have happened, because the noise in the Convention Center arena was near deafening.

4) Sonny Liston was rushed to hospital immediately after the fight. He didn't even take a shower. There was a presumption that he had a shoulder fracture, as reported by the
Associated Press.

5) A sports reporter from, The News, Frederick, Maryland, got a statement from
Sonny Liston that he hurt his shoulder near the end of the 1st Round, when he
blocked a Cassius Clay punch with his shoulder. The punch hit the point of the shoulder, causing his left arm to go numb.
The numbness started in the shoulder, and slowly worked its way down into his hand.
Rendering the left arm useless.

6) Jack Nilon stated, that Sonny wanted to go on, but Jack Nilon did not want to send him out there with only one-arm. He told Sonny, 'Don't worry, there will be another night'.

7) Sonny Liston, had told his corner, 'I just can't go on anymore'

8} Milt Bailey stated that Sonny said 'We'll be back', while his corner was consoling him.

9} Miami Beach Boxing Commission doctor, Dr. Alexander Robbins, determined a
severe strain in the left shoulder muscle, an inflamed bicep muscle, and indications of
long-term bursitis, while examining Sonny Liston at St Francis Hosital.

10) When Sonny arrived at the hospital, his left shoulder was taped up with bandages.

11) When he left the hospital, he walked out with his shirt on, and no indications of bandages.
And his arm was by his side.

12) Two-days later, he was was wearing a sling, with his left arm in the support.

Last edited by Il Duce; 01-05-2011 at 10:12 PM.
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Old 01-06-2011, 11:38 AM   #35
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Default Re: Liston-Clay I; Where the money went?

Dave,

A more simple understanding.
The fight promoters Inter-Continental Promotions sold the 'live gate' promotion.
Bill MacDonald bought the rights for $625,000.

The $625,000 was to be split 3-ways.
40%,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, Sonny Liston,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,$250,000
22 1/2%,,,,,,,,,,,Cassius Clay,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,$140,625
37 1/2%,,,,,,,,,, Inter-Continental Promotions,,,,,$234,375

This was 'live gate' revenue only, not the closed circuit revenue.

Now, Sonny Liston owned 50% of Inter-Continental Promotions.
Which meant, he was to receive an additional $117,187 from the 'live gate' money.

In total $367,187 cash.
That money was 'held up' by the Miami Beach Boxing Commssion, pending their 'farcical' investigation.

To confuse matters more, only $402,000 was taken in by the 'live gate' receipts.
So Bill MacDonald was $223,000 short + additional monies that he took from the 'live gate'
to pay other fight related expenses.

Last edited by Il Duce; 01-06-2011 at 12:03 PM.
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Old 01-06-2011, 01:22 PM   #36
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Default Re: Liston-Clay I; Where the money went?

Joe-Clinch,,,,,

If you really want to see 'muddy waters',,,,,,,here's more bizarre info.

Robert Nilon has an agreement with Cassius Clay and Bill Faversham, and agrees to give them $50,000 in cash, which he does, a couple of days before the fight, to guarantee a rematch.

But, $150,000 of Cassius Clays fight purse, from the 'Closed Circuit' revenue is put in escrow, pending a rematch, and to be released to Cassius Clay after the rematch fight.

So, in fact, Inter-Continental Promotions (50% owned by Sonny Liston) owed
Muhammad Ali $150,000 (money held from the first fight), as of 5/25/65, before the rematch fight took place.

There are some who believe a deal was cut, so they wouldn't have to give Ali and his group the $150,000.

Willie Crawford, a Liston friend, said Sonny Liston wanted to get out of boxing anyway. He was tired and worn down,
hastled in Denver, and ridiculed to no end wherever he went.
It is possible the $150,000 was not paid to Ali's group, and 'so-called lay-down' money stayed with Sonny Liston
and I-C-P.

Last edited by Il Duce; 01-06-2011 at 02:13 PM.
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Old 01-11-2011, 11:34 PM   #37
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Default Re: Liston-Clay I; Where the money went?

TT,

I can't put down everything, because much of it will be in the book.

But, more problems happened down in Miami Beach.

1) The IRS seized $2,700,000 of the closed circuit money, as Sonny Liston and
I-C-P were being investigated for back taxes.

2) Associated Booking Corp., had a judgement for $33,000 against Sonny Liston,
for breach of contract, concerning his European (England) boxing exhibition in the
summer of 1963.

The mess was deeper than anyone knew, even today nobody has all the information, or as much as I do.

Last edited by Il Duce; 01-12-2011 at 10:32 AM.
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Old 01-12-2011, 07:35 AM   #38
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Default Re: Liston-Clay I; Where the money went?

Brilliant stuff again, Il Duce.

Your research is astounding.
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Old 01-12-2011, 09:26 AM   #39
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Default Re: Liston-Clay I; Where the money went?

MR. UN,,,,,

Thanks again,,,,,,,Sonny Liston walked with away with virtually no
money, after the fight, as everything was tied up.
Yet, his expenses did not come cheaply.

No one wanted to say Irving 'Ash" Resnick was covering all of Sonny's expenses,
but it was obvious that he was.
He set-up Sonny's training facitlity at the Thunderbird Hotel in Las Vegas,
and converted the Hotel Coffee Shop into Sonny's Public Relations Office.
In Miami Beach, Resnick and the Thunderbrid Hotel sponsored Sonny Liston's Training Facility in Surfside,
and covered his Team's hotel and hospitality expenses at The Fountainebleau Hotel.

If Sonny Liston and his close-knit-group wanted to make any money off this fight, and not have it tied up
in legal issues, or seized by the U.S. Government, it was only 'one-way',,,,,,,,

Last edited by Il Duce; 01-12-2011 at 10:35 AM.
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Old 01-12-2011, 10:49 AM   #40
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Default Re: Liston-Clay I; Where the money went?

TT,

After the fight in Miami Beach, Sonny did not head directly home to Denver,
He flew into Chicago first, where specific 'business' had to be tended to.

His 'live gate' fight purse $367,000 was held up in Miami Beach.
And $33,000 was held up, pending a judgement for breach of contract.

After Sonny's Chicago visit, he headed back to Denver, Colorado.

As for Bill MacDonald, the local promoter for the fight in Miami Beach. He then started making claims that Sonny was partying and drinking heavily, late Monday night, the day before the fight.
And that Sonny showed up at the weigh-in, Tuesday, reaking of alcohol,
from the previous late-night drinking.
MacDonald said, that Sonny's manager Jack Nilon went thru 5-packs of gum that he had to give Sonny, to conceal the alcohol 'aroma'.
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Old 01-12-2011, 11:54 AM   #41
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Default Re: Liston-Clay I; Where the money went?

Amazing stuff,Duce.Are you intending to write a book on Sonny or the period in general?If not you should.Great reading!
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Old 01-12-2011, 12:44 PM   #42
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Default Re: Liston-Clay I; Where the money went?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fatcity View Post
Amazing stuff,Duce.Are you intending to write a book on Sonny or the period in general?If not you should.Great reading!
Right down to the cars he owned,,,,,,,,

Though he didn't have a bunch of cash after the Liston-Clay I fight.
In March 1964, he got (a quiet gift) a brand new 1964 white Cadillac Fleetwood.
The Cadillac came from Las Vegas, through a Chicago connection, and
delivered to Denver, where Sonny lived.
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Old 07-25-2012, 01:07 PM   #43
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Default Re: Liston-Clay I; Where the money went?

Prior to the February 1964 bout -

Sonny's financial house was a 'mess'.

He was being covered 'financially' by Ash Resnick.
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Old 07-25-2012, 01:36 PM   #44
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Default Re: Liston-Clay I; Where the money went?

The Players

* Sonny Liston...........(The Champion)
* Jack Nilon...............(The Manager)
* Robert Nilon.............(Vice-President Inter-Continental Promotions)
* Jim Nilon.................(Treasurer)
* Irving 'Ash' Resnick...(Las Vegas Gambler, personal advisor and money man)
* Garland Sherry.........(Attorney)
* Dr. Robert Bennett....(Personal physician)
* Willie Reddish............(Chief trainer)
* Milt Bailey................(Cornerman)
* Joe Pollino................(Cut-man)
* Foneda Cox..............(Friend)
* Teddy King...............(Friend and Photographer)
* Archie Pirolli..............(Friend)
* Raymond Munsey.......(Equipment manager)
* Samuel Margolis.........(Associate in Inter-Continental Promotions)
* Salvate J. Avena.......(Attorney)
* Joseph 'Pep' Barrone...(Former Manager)
* George Katz..............(Former Manager)
* John 'Moose' Grayson..(Former Bodyguard)

* Dundee-MacDonald Enterprises.....(The Convention Hall Promoters)
* VFW Post #3559........................(On-Site Fight Sponsor)

* Neil Halpern...............(President T-N-T Network)
* Steve Ellis.................(Closed-Circuit Fight Announcer)

* Harold Conrad............(Fight Publicist)

Last edited by Senor Pepe'; 07-25-2012 at 03:39 PM.
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Old 11-12-2012, 01:30 PM   #45
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Default Re: Liston-Clay I; Where the money went?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Il Duce View Post
February 25, 1964
REVENUE;
* Live Gate;,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, $402,000
* Closed Circuit Theater Ticket Buys,, $4,000,000
* Radio Broadcast Rights,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,$115,000
* Overseas Radio Broadcast Rights,,,,,,,,$125,000
* Community Antenna (Cable TV),,,,,,,,,$100,000
* Advertisers (TNT Network),,,,,,,,,,,,,,,$125,000
* Motion Picture (Future Movie Rights),,,$50,000
* Other Fight Related Revenue,,,,,,,,,,,,,$15,000

TOTAL $4,922,000
According to the I-C-P 'money man' Robert Nilon, who considered possible opponents
(his evaluation was done in August 1963), right after Sonny blasted out Floyd Patterson in the rematch.

A) Cleveland Williams (a third bout)
B) Floyd Patterson (a third bout)
C) Ernie Terrell

Wouldn't have drawn 'flies' in early-1964, with possible gross receipts of $1,250,000.

The Liston vs. Clay bout did nearly $5,000,000.
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