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View Poll Results: who has the strongest chin?
MARCIANO 36 78.26%
FRAZIER 10 21.74%
Voters: 46. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 06-30-2007, 02:16 PM   #16
Marciano Frazier
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Default Re: Marciano vs Frazier: Who had the better chin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MachineGunMitch
marciano never fought the caliber of fighters frazier has....
both would make for a killer fight though
See my second post in this thread.
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Old 06-30-2007, 05:05 PM   #17
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Default Re: Marciano vs Frazier: Who had the better chin?

When I throw out out the Foreman fights, I'm left with Bonavena I, and Ali II (in the second round). Nobody ever drove Marciano backwards with their punches the way Ali drove back Frazier with his bombs before Tony Perez broke it up. (Isn't it interesting, that Marciano's trainer was also the guy who developed Ringo into a contender.) The first guy who dropped Rocky also had Louis on the deck thrice, and won the HW Title with a one punch kayo of his own. The second guy who dropped Rocky was rated a harder puncher than Marciano by the only man to go the distance with Rocky twice. That second AGT also trained the hardest puncher in boxing history on how to cultivate his power.

Even if Frazier had never faced Foreman, I would give Rocky the edge on this one.
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Old 06-30-2007, 05:13 PM   #18
Ramon Rojo
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Default Re: Marciano vs Frazier: Who had the better chin?

Frazier had better chin, Rocky never faced big punchers and he was shaken by light heavyweight guys.
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Old 06-30-2007, 05:40 PM   #19
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Default Re: Marciano vs Frazier: Who had the better chin?

ALWAYS LIKED JOE FRAZIER AND HE HAD A PRETTY GOOD CHIN. MARCIANO HAD A GREAT CHIN.
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Old 06-30-2007, 05:48 PM   #20
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Default Re: Marciano vs Frazier: Who had the better chin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marciano Frazier
Yes, it isn't fair to say Marciano's chin was better because he was knocked out by Foreman. But compare each guy's performances against similar levels of fighters and punchers. Frazier was decked during his amateur career(Marciano wasn't), Frazier took a standing-eight against no-name Mike Bruce(no such opponent ever did such to Marciano), Frazier was decked twice and seriously hurt against Bonavena(no one ever hurt Marciano that badly), and Frazier looks visibly rocked at times on film against the likes of Ramos and Ali(Marciano never really looks wobbled by the other man's punches on film). On the other hand, Marciano was never floored as an amateur, never down in his first 42 pro fights, and suffered only two extremely brief knockdowns against powerful hitters who each landed some of their best shots and were unable to seriously stagger him or accomplish anything more than a flash knockdown. It seems apparent to me that Marciano was rocked and dropped less often than Frazier at any given stage of their careers and against any given level of puncher. The reasonable conclusion here is that Marciano was probably the more durable man.
Undoubtedly, one cannot interpolate how well someone can take a very powerful punch based on how the figher handles moderate punches (relatively). It doesn't work like that. Alex Stewart went the distance against a prime Evander Holyfield whereas Mike Tyson was stopped. Evander Holyfield provided a steady beating but not the kind of high amplitude power that someone like Foreman could provide. Alex Stewart seemed to indicate that he could take a steady beating better than Tyson - so can one interpolate and say he takes a very hard punch better? Obviously not because Stewart couldn't last a single round against a very hard puncher (Tyson himself) whereas Mike Tyson could last for several rounds of very hard punches. So overall, Tyson had a better chin than Stewart but you wouldn't know that if you looked at just Holyfield. Same Lennox Lewis - he wasn't often rocked by Holy because he could handle moderate power - but land a single straight right from someone like Foreman and he's gone immediately. He did not have a better chin than Tyson - but you wouldn't know that if you based it just one how someone handles the moderate power of Holyfield (once could argue that styles of fighters also determines success - but I'm willing to look at a single punch when it lands).

Additionally, there's lots of room for error in boxing. Can you explain why Muhammad Ali was decked by Henry Cooper but never came close to hitting the deck when taking some monster punches from Liston & Foreman (who DID land some good shots to the chin). Can you explain how Tex Cobb was KO'd in 1 round? (coke?). Some guys are reading into it too much. You need lots of samples to have a clear indication that is above that "noise" or that "uncertainty". Frazier getting shaken by Ali in round 2 - you can't make conclusions on this. The sample is too small. **** happens - but does that happen consistently? With a small sample like that - you cannot tell. A standing eight count in the amateur career doesn't mean a whole lot (you are still green and developing, they are super safe with young amateurs).

The fact that Marciano was decked twice really opens him up to doubt about giving him the benefit of the doubt. It makes you wonder what would happen against Foreman & Ali. He wouldn't do better than Frazier. Frazier is actually PROVEN to be able to handle very powerful punches. Against Foreman - he proved he could take many powerful shots and still be able to fight - that is chin!

Those methods of comparison to predict Marciano being able to handle VERY POWERFUL punches are not reliable at all (hardly better than a guess really - look at Lennox Lewis - if it wasn't for those two single shots, we'd say he has a granite chin - the record would show too). And people are looking too much into details that have lots of artificats and noise. What is fact, is that Frazier is MORE TESTED and proven in his chin than Marciano - as he showed his chin against Foreman.

To the chap who said Frazier's chin "failed" against Foreman. It did not. Fraizier was still able to fight but stylistically Foreman was able to tee off. ANYONE would have to stop (OK, maybe not Tex Cobb) if Foreman can punch them at will and keep them off range - ANYONE - it is a stylistic thing - not a matter of chin.

If I had to put money - I'd say Frazier as he is more proven.
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Old 06-30-2007, 05:54 PM   #21
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Default Re: Marciano vs Frazier: Who had the better chin?

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Originally Posted by Duodenum
When I throw out out the Foreman fights, I'm left with Bonavena I, and Ali II (in the second round).
That is very little information to make conclusions on. You mention round 2 of Ali 2? I remember that - you can't conclude a whole lot from that. It was the SPEED of the punch that stunned Frazier. I'm certain that this kind of stuff would happen to Marciano also had he fought Muhammad Ali.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duodenum
Isn't it interesting, that Marciano's trainer was also the guy who developed Ringo into a contender.) The first guy who dropped Rocky also had Louis on the deck thrice, and won the HW Title with a one punch kayo of his own. The second guy who dropped Rocky was rated a harder puncher than Marciano by the only man to go the distance with Rocky twice. That second AGT also trained the hardest puncher in boxing history on how to cultivate his power.
This is all irrelevant how Marciano would do againt Foreman. Moore is not Foreman when it comes to punching power. As for Moore cultivating Foreman's power - that isn't true and if it is, Moore should be ashamed of himself. Foreman was a lousy puncher - he was just blessed with incredible natural power.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duodenum
Even if Frazier had never faced Foreman, I would give Rocky the edge on this one
I'm very skeptical of your basis.
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Old 06-30-2007, 06:07 PM   #22
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Default Re: Marciano vs Frazier: Who had the better chin?

I belive Goldmill was decease by the time Ringo started fighting. I dont see how Marciano's trainer develpoed Ringo.
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Old 06-30-2007, 07:17 PM   #23
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Default Re: Marciano vs Frazier: Who had the better chin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hobgoblin
As for Moore cultivating Foreman's power - that isn't true
My screw-up. I meant to say Shavers, not Foreman. (I'd just posted to a thread concerning Foreman, and failed to make the mental shift from subject to subject.) I've warned members of this board before about my tendency to reverse words and names like this, but if I can't get a handle on what I mean to actually communicate, then I'd better start thinking about leaving ESB permanently. Mistakes like this are simply not acceptable.
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Old 06-30-2007, 07:34 PM   #24
hobgoblin
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Default Re: Marciano vs Frazier: Who had the better chin?

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Originally Posted by Duodenum
but if I can't get a handle on what I mean to actually communicate, then I'd better start thinking about leaving ESB permanently. Mistakes like this are simply not acceptable.
This is a forum with variety. Yes, there are very informed and mature posters. All sorts of ages. But there are lots of 12 year olds too. This is NOT a "professional" forum for the elite or anything.

"Mistakes like this are simply not acceptable"

Hahaha. This is not a professional conference. It's bar talk. Say whatever you want, however you want. People here say stupid things so often - and sometimes - the poor chap just can't help it. There are PLENTY OF MISTAKES here.

Technically: you didn't mention Foreman or Shavers so perhaps I was wrong to assume Foreman, as Shavers himself fits the bill too (and much better).
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Old 06-30-2007, 07:49 PM   #25
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Default Re: Marciano vs Frazier: Who had the better chin?

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Originally Posted by hobgoblin
This is a forum with variety. Yes, there are very informed and mature posters. All sorts of ages. But there are lots of 12 year olds too. This is NOT a "professional" forum for the elite or anything.

"Mistakes like this are simply not acceptable"

Hahaha. This is not a professional conference. It's bar talk. Say whatever you want, however the **** you want, etc.

Technically: you didn't mention Foreman or Shavers so perhaps I was wrong to assume Foreman, as Shavers himself fits the bill too (and much better).
Yeah, maybe so, but I've been a bartender, and am trying to distance myself from that a little, in favor of some civilized discourse (albeit about what many consider a barbaric subject).

(Hey, if I wanted to interact with lots of 12 year olds, I'd be spending all my time on the General Forum!) Dammit, you're right, I didn't mention Foreman. (Whew! Whatta relief! I won't have to get screened for Alzheimer's after all!)
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Old 06-30-2007, 08:14 PM   #26
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Default Re: Marciano vs Frazier: Who had the better chin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marciano Frazier
Marciano- he wasn't wobbled, floored or stopped as often as Frazier at any stage of his career.
frazier was dropped only by ....one guy marciano had been dropped by not even powerpunchers just guys whpo can throw the punch in the general direction
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Old 06-30-2007, 09:09 PM   #27
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Default Re: Marciano vs Frazier: Who had the better chin?

Yeah, spot on.


Quote:
Originally Posted by hobgoblin
Don't know. We know that both could take a long, steady beating i.e. lots of punishment. They were tough. But we don't know how Marciano would deal with a HIGH AMPLITUDE OF POWER shot from Lennox Lewis, who hit much harder than Archie Moore (most KOs ever of all fighters) or Ezzard Charles (who killed in the ring).
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Old 06-30-2007, 09:12 PM   #28
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Default Re: Marciano vs Frazier: Who had the better chin?

I think the Foreman and Ali fights show Fraziers recouperative power to be super-eilte, not good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bummy Davis
Marciano was suposed to be a guy that was hit often, yet he was only dropped twice, he recuped very fast and the force of the punches seemed to be the thing that dropped him because he rose fast, Frazier was dropped by Bonavena 2 times who was a clubber but lets face it O.B. could not wobble Patterson and Who did Oscar KO, A fighter that can throw a pinpoint power punch like Walcott, Moore and Charles can sometimes be more effective than a hard punching but slow clubber like Foreman because they can land punches that a Foreman can not, Walcott showed his hook vs Charles and also vs Marciano but he had a right hand also, he dropped Louis 3 times, Anyway Frazier got up 6 times vs Foreman and I think 2 times in the rematch, twice vs Bonavena and once vs another early foe so I think Frazier had a good chin but Marciano was never really hurt or in danger of being stopped, Marciano had an ELITE chin, Frazier had a very good one, Marciano had Elite recup power, Frazier had good recup power
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Old 07-01-2007, 01:06 AM   #29
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Default Re: Marciano vs Frazier: Who had the better chin?

Frazier's chin was more tested, but IDK, I'll say it's about even.
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Old 07-01-2007, 05:07 AM   #30
Marciano Frazier
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Default Re: Marciano vs Frazier: Who had the better chin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hobgoblin
Undoubtedly, one cannot interpolate how well someone can take a very powerful punch based on how the figher handles moderate punches (relatively). It doesn't work like that.
More often than not, it does. A guy who stands up well to moderate-level punchers is more likely to stand up to high-level ones than a guy who doesn't.

Quote:
Alex Stewart went the distance against a prime Evander Holyfield whereas Mike Tyson was stopped. Evander Holyfield provided a steady beating but not the kind of high amplitude power that someone like Foreman could provide. Alex Stewart seemed to indicate that he could take a steady beating better than Tyson - so can one interpolate and say he takes a very hard punch better? Obviously not because Stewart couldn't last a single round against a very hard puncher (Tyson himself) whereas Mike Tyson could last for several rounds of very hard punches. So overall, Tyson had a better chin than Stewart but you wouldn't know that if you looked at just Holyfield.
On what basis do you make being able to take one very hard punch more valuable than being able to take many pretty hard punches? Why should a guy who can take one huge wallop on the jaw without flinching, but crumbles under sustained pressure be given the edge over a guy who might go down from one big shot but can keep taking punishment all night long without staying down? What makes you think the first guy in this situation has the better chin "overall"?

Quote:
Additionally, there's lots of room for error in boxing. Can you explain why Muhammad Ali was decked by Henry Cooper but never came close to hitting the deck when taking some monster punches from Liston & Foreman (who DID land some good shots to the chin). Can you explain how Tex Cobb was KO'd in 1 round? (coke?). Some guys are reading into it too much. You need lots of samples to have a clear indication that is above that "noise" or that "uncertainty". Frazier getting shaken by Ali in round 2 - you can't make conclusions on this. The sample is too small. **** happens - but does that happen consistently? With a small sample like that - you cannot tell. A standing eight count in the amateur career doesn't mean a whole lot (you are still green and developing, they are super safe with young amateurs).
I'm quite aware of all this. Note that I said that "the reasonable conclusion is that Marciano was probably the more durable man." I didn't say "Marciano takes a better punch, and anyone who disagrees is some form of obscene expletive" or somesuch. Rather, that since Marciano was wobbled and dropped less often than Frazier in each stage of their respective careers and even against the same level of puncher, the most likely conclusion is that Marciano probably had a better chin.

Quote:
The fact that Marciano was decked twice really opens him up to doubt about giving him the benefit of the doubt. It makes you wonder what would happen against Foreman & Ali. He wouldn't do better than Frazier.
Your logic was very sound in large portions above, but you don't seem to be carrying it over at all here. Marciano was down for two-and-three counts against Walcott and Moore, sure, but Ali was decked by Henry Cooper, Sonny Banks, and Chuck Wepner, Foreman was dropped by Jimmy Young, Ali and Chuck Wepner, Liston was downed by Marti Marshall and Leotis Martin, Dempsey was dropped by Johnny Sudenberg, Fireman Jim Flynn, and others, Holyfield was dropped by Bert Cooper and James Toney, Holmes was down against Kevin Isaac and Renaldo Snipes, etc., and every one of those men stood up against top-notch power punchers in spite of it. Every one of those men was floored and hurt by far inferior fighters and punchers to Walcott and Moore, but was quite obviously capable of standing up at the highest level. Against the level of punchers he fought, Marciano stood up better and more consistently than virtually anyone.

Quote:
Those methods of comparison to predict Marciano being able to handle VERY POWERFUL punches are not reliable at all (hardly better than a guess really - look at Lennox Lewis - if it wasn't for those two single shots, we'd say he has a granite chin - the record would show too).
Again, why are you assuming that the most important part of durability is being able to stand up to "VERY POWERFUL" punches? Why is that more important than being able to stand up to large accumulations of moderately powerful punches? Would not each asset serve its owner equally well against different opponents? A guy who can take one powerful shot well but breaks down under an accumulation and a guy who can be hurt with one shot but can take punishment all night are theoretically equally durable in my view. It's the ones who can do both that have the truly top-notch chins. We know that Marciano can do the first as well as anyone. Whether he was equally strong in the second facet is impossible to know for certain, but again, we have no specific reason to think he wasn't.

Quote:
And people are looking too much into details that have lots of artificats and noise.
Again, if you want to compare two fighters' careers, these "details" are important. If they're skewed and can be interpreted either way, it isn't particularly meaningful. But since in this case, they are consistent(Marciano was floored and hurt less as an amateur, as a young professional, as a contender and as a champion, and against the same level of hitter), they constitute sound reason to recognize an apparent gap between these men's respective levels of durability.


Quote:
If I had to put money - I'd say Frazier as he is more proven.
Again, I would bet Marciano, because he stood up better in every way which we can directly compare them.
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