Marciano vs Frazier: Who had the better chin?

[Marciano Frazier]

Originally Posted by hobgoblin

The way you write it, I'd think Joe Frazier had a chin like Floyd Patterson!

Um, where do you get that impression? I never said "Frazier was constantly wobbled and dropped and I could take a better punch than he could." I only said that he was wobbled/dropped more than Marciano, who was hardly ever wobbled/dropped. All-in-all, of course, Frazier was green when he was dropped by Bruce and Bonavena, he took some very serious batterings and kept coming during his rise to the title, he proved his mettle against some guys who could pack a formidable punch as champion and in his post-title career, and he took one of the worst shellackings you'll ever see from one of the most dangerous punchers of all time and was still on his feet after being splattered on the floor six times when the fight was stopped.
In fact, if you flick down to the "How many fighters would blow Frazier out?" thread(which I started), you'll see I've been actively defending Frazier's durability and have been engaged in a long exchange with Mendoza over Frazier's durability, particularly in comparison with Norton's(Mendoza is making the argument that Norton showed a similar level of durability to Frazier and Frazier being considered to have a solid chin while Norton is viewed as having a weak one is the result of bias/skewed perception, and I'm arguing that Frazier was considerably more durable than Norton and much harder to blast out). This is an interesting time for me, because I'm busy in one thread defending and promoting Frazier's chin as underrated and strong and arguing against it in comparison with another fighter simultaneously! Again, I have never said anything here to the effect of the viewpoint that Frazier had a weak chin or was easy to hurt and knock down- only that he did not have as good a chin as Marciano(since a comparison of these two fighters in that department is the topic posed in the heading of this thread).

Yes, Marciano wins 3-1 in the categories you listed (look at his championship defenses and his fights with Ali - including the Foreman fights is just plain wrong - if anything - those fights showed what a warrior Joe Frazier was). However, that is sort of like George Bush having won 30 states (or more) during the 2000 election but each state was won by not a significant margin and so "overall" on the popular vote, Gore was actually ahead. If you look "overall" the difference is not a decisive 3-1. It is closer. The category of Herculean punches is what could potentially be Frazier's California, Pennsylvania, etc (these states counted more heavily).

Yes, but we don't have any evidence Frazier has the advantage in "Herculean" punches, and since Marciano seems to take medium and pretty-hard punches better, the reasonable guess would be that he probably takes extremely hard ones better as well- in the absence of some kind of compelling evidence that Frazier was better at taking "Herculean" punches, the fair conclusion, based on the available evidence, is that Marciano probably had the sturdier overall set of whiskers.

He doesn't win by a whole lot IMO. We NEED to make a direct comparison against Herculean punches. We don't have it - we really can't make conclusions.

We can't make definitive conclusions, but we can make educated guesses. As you've probably noticed, this entire forum centers around hypothetical scenarios involving fighters we simply can't compare directly. Without objective measurements or common opponents, there is no way to make a sure conclusion that one champion from one era was better than another from a different era, but that certainly doesn't stop us from speculating and making educated guesses about it.

Imagine my friend and I are involved in a shooting competition on a basketball court. We each shoot 100 free throws, and I make 80, while he makes 70. Then we each step outside the circle and shoot 100 three-pointers. I make 60 and he makes 50. Next, we're each going to shoot 100 from half-court, and you're a spectator looking to make a smart bet on the outcome. Now, the fact that I outscored my friend at free throws and three-pointers doesn't prove that I'm better at half-court; but since I seem to be better at moderate-range and fairly long-range shots, the smart bet would be that I'm probably better at very long-range shots, too. By the same token, since Marciano seems to have been harder to hurt/drop with medium and fairly hard punches(not for certain, since, as you say, much of this is incidental and fluid, but since their careers reflect it as best we can see, we can reasonably think he was), he was most likely also harder to hurt/drop with extremely hard punches.

Now, I don't mean to make light of your effort in this next series of paragraphs/arguments(it is well-articulated and detailed), but I don't have the time or space(they've got a limit on the length of posts these days) to quote each one individually, so I will go over your points in this next section in a little broader fashion.

When I talked about "covering up" and "fighting through" being hurt, I didn't necessarily mean that those things indicated a better chin- rather I said that they cause a fighter to be perceived as having a better chin. I was pointing out that there are a great deal of factors which effect an observer's perception of how good a chin one fighter has in comparison with another, that judging this sort of thing off visual interpretation is still a grey and uncertain determination, and that there are some facets which are debatable, ie if one guy takes a single hard punch and doesn't go down, but is separated from his senses and unable to perform competently afterwards, while another guy takes an equally hard shot and does go down, but is fine internally and was only knocked over by the force of the punch, who actually took the shot better?
As for examples of fighters who stood up to one very hard punch but went down under accumulations of lighter punches, look at, for instance, Oscar Bonavena- he was certainly able to take single, crushing hooks from a Joe Frazier without going down, but after 14 rounds of consistent punishment from the much lighter-hitting Ali, he completely snapped and was dropped and left helpless.

Most boxing fans will dub a fighter as having granite chin if they seem him handle a sing hard shot and be fine - look at Vitali. This is how chins are considered by many.

Yes, fighters like Vitali Klitschko are known for having granite chins because they survived single powerful shots, but you're ignoring a large portion of the field when you make this remark. To use an example very close to home here, when Frazier's durability comes up, I've often heard remarks to the tune of "No one can watch Ali-Frazier I and tell me Frazier didn't have an excellent chin."

[Minotauro]

I think Frazier chin was good but his recovery was great thats what enabled him to get back up so many times against Foreman. Marciano had a slightly better chin although he never fought anyone like Foreman.

[hobgoblin]

Originally Posted by Marciano Frazier

Yes, but we don't have any evidence Frazier has the advantage in "Herculean" punches, and since Marciano seems to take medium and pretty-hard punches better, the reasonable guess

We can't make definitive conclusions, but we can make educated guesses.

Imagine my friend and I are involved in a shooting competition on a basketball court. We each shoot 100 free throws, and I make 80, while he makes 70. Then we each step outside the circle and shoot 100 three-pointers. I make 60 and he makes 50. Next, we're each going to shoot 100 from half-court, and you're a spectator looking to make a smart bet on the outcome. Now, the fact that I outscored my friend at free throws and three-pointers doesn't prove that I'm better at half-court; but since I seem to be better at moderate-range and fairly long-range shots, the smart bet would be that I'm probably better at very long-range shots, too.

It is NOT a reasonable or an educated inference at all. Your example clearly indicates it. People that shoot well at the free throw and then go to shoot well at three point lines - are usually just good shooters in general so it isn't a fitting analogy. Nevertheless, some parts do work: your shooting at half court is nearly irrelevant to your shooting within a reasonable range - I'm sure when you see someone try a half court shot they have a very different position and "technique" ; it is something totally different and hardly related to normal shooting. Just like that, a Herculanean punch is something totally different to moderate power punches - it is like the half court shot (in exaggeration to illustrate my point).

Originally Posted by Marciano Frazier

As for examples of fighters who stood up to one very hard punch but went down under accumulations of lighter punches, look at, for instance, Oscar Bonavena- he was certainly able to take single, crushing hooks from a Joe Frazier without going down, but after 14 rounds of consistent punishment from the much lighter-hitting Ali, he completely snapped and was dropped and left helpless.

That is not a very good example. I saw the finish - it is comical. It had less to do with Bonavena's chin and more with other things like not having the conditioning (for facing Ali at least) and getting plain tired (we discussed this kind of tainting before). More so - 14 rounds of punishment - that is EXCELLENT ability to take a steady beating (maybe not as good as Marciano - but if Bonavena can take very hard shots better than you must look at it overall).

I'm not stating that Frazier has a better chin. I'm saying that I would put money on him to have a better chin (based on conventional wisdom) because I know what is UNDER THE TRUNK OF that car - I have seen that he takes hard shots and gets back up if needbe. I can't say the same for Marciano so I'll take the MORE PROVEN product.

Yes, fighters like Vitali Klitschko are known for having granite chins because they survived single powerful shots, but you're ignoring a large portion of the field when you make this remark. To use an example very close to home here, when Frazier's durability comes up, I've often heard remarks to the tune of "No one can watch Ali-Frazier I and tell me Frazier didn't have an excellent chin."

I'm not ignoring - it is just a ONE WAY street. If a fighter takes a single hard shot well - it means he can take a sustained beating so long as his other factors are tuned in. If a fighter takes a sustained beating - it is not an EDUCATED CONCLUSION to say he takes a very hard shot too as we've seen many cases of that discontinuity. A lot of people probably believe that it is a reasonable or educated inference - it most definitely is not - people are ignoring too many examples in history that show it is a one way street.

At the end of the day, Joe Frazier was more proven.

[Dempsey1238]

Marciano took shots from Walcott, and Moore and they were hard punchers, sure not George Foreman level. But does getting stop by Foreman relly PROVE Fraizer's chin?? I belive Marciano would have goting stop the same way. Up and down. But that does not mean Marciano or Fraizer had less than a chin. As MM said, Fraizer was hurt vs lower tier or middle tier punchings. Marciano took them and strug them off and keep comeing. Only Walcott hurt Marciano in round 11, even the knockdown did not hurt Marciano. Moore caught the Rock on 1 foot. But Fraizer was indeed hurt vs Bonavena and Ali in the 2nd fight. As well as Ramos hurting Fraizer with a uppercut. And other accouts. Outside of Foreman, I dont think Fraizer took on a puncher like Walcott or Moore imo.

[JIm Broughton]

The fact is That Rocky never faced the kind of punishment that Joe had to endure. Joe took hundreds of sharp fast hard shots from Ali who was underrated as a puncher and kept getting up after being bombed by a giant clubber like Foreman, two modern sized athletes. Rocky never faced anything like that in his career. He was decked by Moore who weighed 180 and was hurt as well. Rocky was also given a standing 8 count which was not in the conditions set before the fight. Moore might have finished him if the ref did'nt do this. Marciano fought in an era where fighters were generally under 200lbs and nowhere as fast as the modern fighters of Joe's era. Most of the punches in Rocky's era were thrown with a one-and-a-two rythym. Ali threw lightning fast combos that came 4 and 5 at a time, and hurt. How would Rocky deal with that kind of barrage? And if Foreman could easily shove a 212 Frazier halfway across the ring before throwing his bombs, I think he would easily do the same to a 184lb Marciano. Could Rocky keep getting up after receiving those kind of power shots which came very fast from a brute like Foreman? Maybe he could survive the barrages from Ali and Foreman but the fact is we'll never know so I don't think we can truthfully say who had the better chin unless they both faced the same opponents. Both men were very tough no question about that but Rocky was decked by a light HW in Moore and a cruiserweight in Walcott. It would be interesting to see how he would've handled the shots of bigger modern sized HWs like Ali and Foreman but unfortunately we'll never know.

[Luigi1985]

Originally Posted by JIm Broughton

The fact is That Rocky never faced the kind of punishment that Joe had to endure. Joe took hundreds of sharp fast hard shots from Ali who was underrated as a puncher and kept getting up after being bombed by a giant clubber like Foreman, two modern sized athletes. Rocky never faced anything like that in his career. He was decked by Moore who weighed 180 and was hurt as well. Rocky was also given a standing 8 count which was not in the conditions set before the fight. Moore might have finished him if the ref did'nt do this. Marciano fought in an era where fighters were generally under 200lbs and nowhere as fast as the modern fighters of Joe's era. Most of the punches in Rocky's era were thrown with a one-and-a-two rythym. Ali threw lightning fast combos that came 4 and 5 at a time, and hurt. How would Rocky deal with that kind of barrage? And if Foreman could easily shove a 212 Frazier halfway across the ring before throwing his bombs, I think he would easily do the same to a 184lb Marciano. Could Rocky keep getting up after receiving those kind of power shots which came very fast from a brute like Foreman? Maybe he could survive the barrages from Ali and Foreman but the fact is we'll never know so I don't think we can truthfully say who had the better chin unless they both faced the same opponents. Both men were very tough no question about that but Rocky was decked by a light HW in Moore and a cruiserweight in Walcott. It would be interesting to see how he would've handled the shots of bigger modern sized HWs like Ali and Foreman but unfortunately we'll never know.

Yes, he was badly hurt, if he wouldn´t be white, the referee surely would have stopped the fight, but Moore wasn´t the only opponent of Marciano who was robbed...

[Dempsey1238]

Wallace didnt knock out the Rock. Wallace won on points in that Atm fight. Marciano didnt get knockout in the pros or the Atms.

[RoccoMarciano]

Originally Posted by Homicidal Hank

Marciano never faced big, talented heavyweights like Ali and Foreman. Marciano couldn't go the distance with either one of them. With Foreman it would have been a massacre.

Ali wasn't that big, and I really don't see him winning against Marciano.... Ali gets his head knocked off in the 11th!

[RoccoMarciano]

Marciano and Frazier both had great chins... very nearly equal I would say.

[Jack]

I'd probably say around equal, but seeing as Marciano is wining this poll easily, I voted for Frazier.

It's hard to say really. I think there is a lot of fighters who would have looked to have an awesome chin against Marciano's opposition, despite them being knocked down in their own careers, such as Holmes, Dempsey, prime Louis, Holyfield, Tyson. I just can't see those, or many other ATG's, suffering knockdowns against the poor competition Marciano faced, unless it is a freak shot.

On the other hand, Frazier had a tough career against hard htiting guys, and you can only say he was hurt before and after his prime. Considering the physical shape he was in post-Ali I, it's no wonder his punch resistance fell. If you think about how drastically the difference in his style was against Bonavena, it's clear that is wasn't prime Frazier.

You have a guy who was only hurt before and after his prime and one who was very rarely hurt. You have someone who faced elite level punchers, and one who often fought light weak hitters.

It's hard to say because of the circumstances. the two cases are very different, but I think if they both fought the same 50 guys, the results would be similar.