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View Poll Results: who has the strongest chin?
MARCIANO 36 78.26%
FRAZIER 10 21.74%
Voters: 46. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 07-02-2007, 09:13 AM   #46
Minotauro
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Default Re: Marciano vs Frazier: Who had the better chin?

I think Frazier chin was good but his recovery was great thats what enabled him to get back up so many times against Foreman. Marciano had a slightly better chin although he never fought anyone like Foreman.
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Old 07-02-2007, 03:38 PM   #47
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Default Re: Marciano vs Frazier: Who had the better chin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marciano Frazier
Yes, but we don't have any evidence Frazier has the advantage in "Herculean" punches, and since Marciano seems to take medium and pretty-hard punches better, the reasonable guess

We can't make definitive conclusions, but we can make educated guesses.

Imagine my friend and I are involved in a shooting competition on a basketball court. We each shoot 100 free throws, and I make 80, while he makes 70. Then we each step outside the circle and shoot 100 three-pointers. I make 60 and he makes 50. Next, we're each going to shoot 100 from half-court, and you're a spectator looking to make a smart bet on the outcome. Now, the fact that I outscored my friend at free throws and three-pointers doesn't prove that I'm better at half-court; but since I seem to be better at moderate-range and fairly long-range shots, the smart bet would be that I'm probably better at very long-range shots, too.
It is NOT a reasonable or an educated inference at all. Your example clearly indicates it. People that shoot well at the free throw and then go to shoot well at three point lines - are usually just good shooters in general so it isn't a fitting analogy. Nevertheless, some parts do work: your shooting at half court is nearly irrelevant to your shooting within a reasonable range - I'm sure when you see someone try a half court shot they have a very different position and "technique" ; it is something totally different and hardly related to normal shooting. Just like that, a Herculanean punch is something totally different to moderate power punches - it is like the half court shot (in exaggeration to illustrate my point).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marciano Frazier
As for examples of fighters who stood up to one very hard punch but went down under accumulations of lighter punches, look at, for instance, Oscar Bonavena- he was certainly able to take single, crushing hooks from a Joe Frazier without going down, but after 14 rounds of consistent punishment from the much lighter-hitting Ali, he completely snapped and was dropped and left helpless.
That is not a very good example. I saw the finish - it is comical. It had less to do with Bonavena's chin and more with other things like not having the conditioning (for facing Ali at least) and getting plain tired (we discussed this kind of tainting before). More so - 14 rounds of punishment - that is EXCELLENT ability to take a steady beating (maybe not as good as Marciano - but if Bonavena can take very hard shots better than you must look at it overall).

I'm not stating that Frazier has a better chin. I'm saying that I would put money on him to have a better chin (based on conventional wisdom) because I know what is UNDER THE TRUNK OF that car - I have seen that he takes hard shots and gets back up if needbe. I can't say the same for Marciano so I'll take the MORE PROVEN product.

Quote:
Yes, fighters like Vitali Klitschko are known for having granite chins because they survived single powerful shots, but you're ignoring a large portion of the field when you make this remark. To use an example very close to home here, when Frazier's durability comes up, I've often heard remarks to the tune of "No one can watch Ali-Frazier I and tell me Frazier didn't have an excellent chin."
I'm not ignoring - it is just a ONE WAY street. If a fighter takes a single hard shot well - it means he can take a sustained beating so long as his other factors are tuned in. If a fighter takes a sustained beating - it is not an EDUCATED CONCLUSION to say he takes a very hard shot too as we've seen many cases of that discontinuity. A lot of people probably believe that it is a reasonable or educated inference - it most definitely is not - people are ignoring too many examples in history that show it is a one way street.

At the end of the day, Joe Frazier was more proven.
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Old 07-02-2007, 03:45 PM   #48
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Default Re: Marciano vs Frazier: Who had the better chin?

Marciano took shots from Walcott, and Moore and they were hard punchers, sure not George Foreman level. But does getting stop by Foreman relly PROVE Fraizer's chin?? I belive Marciano would have goting stop the same way. Up and down. But that does not mean Marciano or Fraizer had less than a chin. As MM said, Fraizer was hurt vs lower tier or middle tier punchings. Marciano took them and strug them off and keep comeing. Only Walcott hurt Marciano in round 11, even the knockdown did not hurt Marciano. Moore caught the Rock on 1 foot. But Fraizer was indeed hurt vs Bonavena and Ali in the 2nd fight. As well as Ramos hurting Fraizer with a uppercut. And other accouts. Outside of Foreman, I dont think Fraizer took on a puncher like Walcott or Moore imo.
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Old 10-05-2007, 09:14 AM   #49
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Default Re: Marciano vs Frazier: Who had the better chin?

The fact is That Rocky never faced the kind of punishment that Joe had to endure. Joe took hundreds of sharp fast hard shots from Ali who was underrated as a puncher and kept getting up after being bombed by a giant clubber like Foreman, two modern sized athletes. Rocky never faced anything like that in his career. He was decked by Moore who weighed 180 and was hurt as well. Rocky was also given a standing 8 count which was not in the conditions set before the fight. Moore might have finished him if the ref did'nt do this. Marciano fought in an era where fighters were generally under 200lbs and nowhere as fast as the modern fighters of Joe's era. Most of the punches in Rocky's era were thrown with a one-and-a-two rythym. Ali threw lightning fast combos that came 4 and 5 at a time, and hurt. How would Rocky deal with that kind of barrage? And if Foreman could easily shove a 212 Frazier halfway across the ring before throwing his bombs, I think he would easily do the same to a 184lb Marciano. Could Rocky keep getting up after receiving those kind of power shots which came very fast from a brute like Foreman? Maybe he could survive the barrages from Ali and Foreman but the fact is we'll never know so I don't think we can truthfully say who had the better chin unless they both faced the same opponents. Both men were very tough no question about that but Rocky was decked by a light HW in Moore and a cruiserweight in Walcott. It would be interesting to see how he would've handled the shots of bigger modern sized HWs like Ali and Foreman but unfortunately we'll never know.
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Old 10-05-2007, 09:17 AM   #50
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Default Re: Marciano vs Frazier: Who had the better chin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JIm Broughton
The fact is That Rocky never faced the kind of punishment that Joe had to endure. Joe took hundreds of sharp fast hard shots from Ali who was underrated as a puncher and kept getting up after being bombed by a giant clubber like Foreman, two modern sized athletes. Rocky never faced anything like that in his career. He was decked by Moore who weighed 180 and was hurt as well. Rocky was also given a standing 8 count which was not in the conditions set before the fight. Moore might have finished him if the ref did'nt do this. Marciano fought in an era where fighters were generally under 200lbs and nowhere as fast as the modern fighters of Joe's era. Most of the punches in Rocky's era were thrown with a one-and-a-two rythym. Ali threw lightning fast combos that came 4 and 5 at a time, and hurt. How would Rocky deal with that kind of barrage? And if Foreman could easily shove a 212 Frazier halfway across the ring before throwing his bombs, I think he would easily do the same to a 184lb Marciano. Could Rocky keep getting up after receiving those kind of power shots which came very fast from a brute like Foreman? Maybe he could survive the barrages from Ali and Foreman but the fact is we'll never know so I don't think we can truthfully say who had the better chin unless they both faced the same opponents. Both men were very tough no question about that but Rocky was decked by a light HW in Moore and a cruiserweight in Walcott. It would be interesting to see how he would've handled the shots of bigger modern sized HWs like Ali and Foreman but unfortunately we'll never know.

Yes, he was badly hurt, if he wouldn´t be white, the referee surely would have stopped the fight, but Moore wasn´t the only opponent of Marciano who was robbed...
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Old 10-05-2007, 08:11 PM   #51
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Default Re: Marciano vs Frazier: Who had the better chin?

Wallace didnt knock out the Rock. Wallace won on points in that Atm fight. Marciano didnt get knockout in the pros or the Atms.
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Old 10-06-2007, 10:48 PM   #52
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Default Re: Marciano vs Frazier: Who had the better chin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Homicidal Hank
Marciano never faced big, talented heavyweights like Ali and Foreman. Marciano couldn't go the distance with either one of them. With Foreman it would have been a massacre.
Ali wasn't that big, and I really don't see him winning against Marciano.... Ali gets his head knocked off in the 11th!
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Old 10-06-2007, 10:49 PM   #53
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Default Re: Marciano vs Frazier: Who had the better chin?

Marciano and Frazier both had great chins... very nearly equal I would say.
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Old 10-06-2007, 11:30 PM   #54
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Default Re: Marciano vs Frazier: Who had the better chin?

I'd probably say around equal, but seeing as Marciano is wining this poll easily, I voted for Frazier.

It's hard to say really. I think there is a lot of fighters who would have looked to have an awesome chin against Marciano's opposition, despite them being knocked down in their own careers, such as Holmes, Dempsey, prime Louis, Holyfield, Tyson. I just can't see those, or many other ATG's, suffering knockdowns against the poor competition Marciano faced, unless it is a freak shot.

On the other hand, Frazier had a tough career against hard htiting guys, and you can only say he was hurt before and after his prime. Considering the physical shape he was in post-Ali I, it's no wonder his punch resistance fell. If you think about how drastically the difference in his style was against Bonavena, it's clear that is wasn't prime Frazier.

You have a guy who was only hurt before and after his prime and one who was very rarely hurt. You have someone who faced elite level punchers, and one who often fought light weak hitters.

It's hard to say because of the circumstances. the two cases are very different, but I think if they both fought the same 50 guys, the results would be similar.
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