could fernando vargas beat paul williams or sergio martinez?

[tommygun711]

Originally Posted by combatesdeboxeo

forget it, i know sergio and he is fast like the hell,a great stylist, he would beat vargas by decision.

you know Sergio in person? that's pretty cool but I still say Fernando beats both, with Sergio it'd be very close and probably a decision.

[sweet_scientist]

Originally Posted by Vantage_West

williams is a target and likes to come foreword exactly what vargas likes. even a few classes below he was able to drop trinidad in the mid rounds almost only because that all vargas had going for him aggression technique and power coupled with a pulverising body attack and a destructive left hook. southpaw or not p williams style of fight could really fuck up here. enters the workhouse and back the guy up which should negate the positiveness of the southpaw stance. but a good interesting fight. also vargas isn't much of a picker with shots so i doubt he would do what martinez did to him. williams might be able to use that swarming style to his advantage coming right into the line of fire if williams goes on the back foot.

vargas was slow as anything which people do forget. i think vargas might just get chewed up withou t knowing it. thinking he is doing good work on the inside might lead to him being worn down by the late rounds.....possibly williams could get to him. sd williams


martinez is a bit more interesting, when it comes to boxers fighting vargas boxers and movers usually look good or can at least pull off some tricks. winky came to him but pulled out when he was set to make him fling at elbows or thin air. and the southpaw jab really through him off. i just don't know how martinez will fight would he come foreword to get him to trade then back off throwing some combo's or would he circle and keep his hands dangerously low? the low guard usually works against very technical well based fighter. they don't want to break out of there stance to get to him vargas had no quams.
i think vargas might of been able to bully him and get a sd

He was about 10 times faster than Margarito, who gave Paul all he could handle.

About 10 times faster than Kelly Pavlik too, who gave Martinez a pretty rough time of it. If Pavlik didn't get cut, that fight could have turned out differently.

[JMP]

I'd favor Vargas over both, especially Williams who he'd do a demolition job on.

[good right hand]

the two things i remember about a prime vargas was that he could fight very well at mid range using really good use of angles and changing his body level. another thing about vargas that i was impressed with was his right hands, his punches where very straight if i remember correctly.

[Xplosive]

Nando would have beaten the living shit outta Paul.

Martinez would have been a much tougher fight for him, but I'd favor Vargas at 154.

98-00 Vargas was a HELLUVA fighter.

[di tullio]

Originally Posted by sweet_scientist

He was about 10 times faster than Margarito, who gave Paul all he could handle.

About 10 times faster than Kelly Pavlik too, who gave Martinez a pretty rough time of it. If Pavlik didn't get cut, that fight could have turned out differently.

Martinez is 7x faster than Winky Wright, who gave Vargas all he can handle.

[Boxed Ears]

Originally Posted by sweet_scientist

He was about 10 times faster than Margarito, who gave Paul all he could handle.

About 10 times faster than Kelly Pavlik too, who gave Martinez a pretty rough time of it. If Pavlik didn't get cut, that fight could have turned out differently.

It's not like he got a fluke cut that changed everything for him.. He was cut over both eyes and had a bloody nose and mouth too, I think, because he was getting dominated. Without that knockdown, which was not really caused much by Pavlik's punching that I recall, there wouldn't have been any perception of Pavlik having a mid-fight rally after the easy first four being swept by Sergio and the last rounds being a complete mess for Pavlik.

[Xplosive]

Originally Posted by di tullio

Martinez is 7x faster than Winky Wright, who gave Vargas all he can handle.

Martinez and Wright were nothing alike stylewise. Winky had that tight guard, that EXCELLENT right jab, and was alot physically stronger than Martinez.

Maravilla is faster handed than Wright ever was, and has more pop than Winky, but despite his quickness he isnt as defensively sound as Wright, and he sometimes has lulls in which Nando would capitalize on.

Prime Vargas was a MUCH better techncian than Williams, Pavlik, and Cintron.

Not saying that Martinez would be an easy fight for Vargas. But I'd favor Nando, at 154 at least.

[sweet_scientist]

Originally Posted by Boxed Ears

It's not like he got a fluke cut that changed everything for him.. He was cut over both eyes and had a bloody nose and mouth too, I think, because he was getting dominated. Without that knockdown, which was not really caused much by Pavlik's punching that I recall, there wouldn't have been any perception of Pavlik having a mid-fight rally after the easy first four being swept by Sergio and the last rounds being a complete mess for Pavlik.

I had the 5th, 7th and 8th rounds scored for Pavlik, with the 6th being an even round. Pavlik WAS coming on in that fight. Martinez had to change his game up and gambled by standing his ground and throwing combos. He ended up cutting Pavlik and that changed the fight.

The cut wasn't a fluke or an accident, Martinez caused it, but by the same token, if they fought multiple times, Pavlik would not get cut every time.

I like Martinez, but I think he's starting to get overrated quite a bit. Lest we forget that this was a guy who lost to Paul Williams a little while ago (I had it a draw). People now act like Williams is no where near his league as a fighter.

[Boxed Ears]

Originally Posted by sweet_scientist

I had the 5th, 7th and 8th rounds scored for Pavlik, with the 6th being an even round. Pavlik WAS coming on in that fight. Martinez had to change his game up and gambled by standing his ground and throwing combos. He ended up cutting Pavlik and that changed the fight.

The cut wasn't a fluke or an accident, Martinez caused it, but by the same token, if they fought multiple times, Pavlik would not get cut every time.

I like Martinez, but I think he's starting to get overrated quite a bit. Lest we forget that this was a guy who lost to Paul Williams a little while ago (I had it a draw). People now act like he Williams is no where near his league as a fighter.

Three rounds doesn't signify a telling kind of trouble here, against a very large and powerful middleweight, imo. I also think Sergio started to coast a bit, during an optical illusion of a Pavlik rally or SNV forbid some kind of ring IQ dependent adjustment he may have made but regardless the point was certainly not "Kelly would get cut every time" but rather differently, I was trying to say he was cut because he was outmatched, as opposed to being outmatched because he happened to get cut. And yes, I do consider that an example of being outmatched.

As far as Martinez being overrated, there's been plenty of bandwagon happy fans out there popping up this year but that's to be expected. I'm not one of them. I felt he'd probably beat Williams the first time, and I felt he did, although I didn't see it as a robbery. I do believe that was a clash of styles that caused two fighters of at least slightly different classes to be extremely competitive though, and that the rematch strengthened the case for that theory, as did the Pavlik victory, which I don't believe Paul would have achieved had he been in there instead.

[di tullio]

Word, BE. I think Sergio is finally getting the credit he deserves. He was landing some of the fastest punches I've ever seen on Cintron.

[Xplosive]

Originally Posted by di tullio

Word, BE. I think Sergio is finally getting the credit he deserves. He was landing some of the fastest punches I've ever seen on Cintron.

You havent seen much then.

[di tullio]

Originally Posted by Xplosive

You havent seen much then.

No, I have.

[combatesdeboxeo]

Originally Posted by tommygun711

you know Sergio in person? that's pretty cool but I still say Fernando beats both, with Sergio it'd be very close and probably a decision.

yes, he is a very humble guy, he live and he was training in spain, madrid.

[El Lucho]

pw yes

martinez maybe