boxing
Forum Home Boxing Forum European British Classic Aussie MMA Training
Go Back   Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum


View Poll Results: Do you want to see the list now?
Yes, I want to see it now! 28 80.00%
No, I would rather wait for the video 7 20.00%
Voters: 35. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 01-04-2011, 03:41 PM   #61
Swarmer
Patrick
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: You know you done fucked up right? You know that right?
Posts: 9,850
vCash: 1035
Default Re: The Top 20 HW List is Complete

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dempsey1238 View Post
They were not middleweights by the time of there bouts with the Rock, they been heavyweights FOR YEARS. Walcott was around 14 or 15 when he turn pro, So I let the middleweight thing slide with him, but like I said, they were still the best. No one brings up Joe Louis's former middleweight victims like Conn.
*shrug*

That's because Louis has a wide range of guys of weights on his wall- he killed the powerful giants and he caught the small, smarter guys with the exception of Charles... It stands out less that way. I didn't say that these guys weren't great-they were fantastic fighters and their straps and longevity guarantee that... But it is something that hurts Rocky H2H in my opinion, that he didn't fight a lot of good big HW competition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dempsey1238 View Post
He started in the army, but was not relly sure to go into boxing or baseball after the war, of couse after a failed try outs for the cubs, he went to boxing, and we all know how that went. so it was more of flip flopping in between.
Hah! That's good. The Cubs suck too much to ever deserve someone like The Rock!
Swarmer is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 01-04-2011, 03:46 PM   #62
Dempsey1238
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 5,015
vCash: 1000
Default Re: The Top 20 HW List is Complete

[quote=Swarmer;8596703]*shrug*

That's because Louis has a wide range of guys of weights on his wall- he killed the powerful giants and he caught the small, smarter guys with the exception of Charles... It stands out less that way. I didn't say that these guys weren't great-they were fantastic fighters and their straps and longevity guarantee that... But it is something that hurts Rocky H2H in my opinion, that he didn't fight a lot of good big HW competition.


But Louis struggle more with the smaller guys than the giants like Baer or Carnera.

Watching the Conn fight, one cant help but wonder if Robinson gain some weight, he might have done the same thing about lol.

Marciano was not trailing on the scorecards like Louis was vs his middleweights. Though Charles went the distant, he was well beating on points.
Dempsey1238 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2011, 03:50 PM   #63
Jorodz
watching Gatti Ward 1...
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Canada, eh? Roy Jones, Jack Daniels and Grandma's Boy
Posts: 10,825
vCash: 1139
Default Re: The Top 20 HW List is Complete

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dempsey1238 View Post
Swarmer, its not Marciano's fault that Walcott, Charles, Archie Moore and even Joe Louis before Marciano defeated him were cleaning out and beating the young guns in the early 50's. Marciano face the best of his era, you cant ask any more from the guy.

On film Charles look just as impressive vs Marshell and Louis as he did vs Marciano in the first fight. I relly think the first Marciano fight was one of Charles best film fights, perhaps up there with Louis.

Louis was the ranked number 1 guy when Marciano beat him, so it was not like Louis was shot. Past his prime yes, but not shot, shot is Ali Holmes. Louis was still a great fighter even at that stage.

Walcott was the reinging heavyweight champion, and in the first fight, put on a amazing show, out countering Marciano, dropping him, and slugging it out with Marciano. One of my all time faves.

Moore was still going strong about ten years after the Marciano fight, so Moore was still a great fighter even at that stage.

Marciano along with Louis, Ali, Tyson, Lewis, clean out there eras, and thats relly all you can ask of a guy. Its not like you can ask Marciano to fight Ali or Tyson because they were not around. Marciano is earning of a top 5 imo.
as an experiment, if you replaced "marciano" with "wlad klitschko", how much of that wouldn't be true? obviously omit the fights with louis, walcott, moore and charles but much like marciano wlad is cleaning out his era and "thats really all you can ask". wlad has fought guys ranked number 1, not his fault they aren't all that good. wlad is "fac[ing] the best of his era, you cant ask any more from the guy." marciano is better than wlad but his competition is often justified for being the best in a relatively more era, same as it is today
Jorodz is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2011, 03:52 PM   #64
Swarmer
Patrick
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: You know you done fucked up right? You know that right?
Posts: 9,850
vCash: 1035
Default Re: The Top 20 HW List is Complete

[quote=Dempsey1238;8596734]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Swarmer View Post
But Louis struggle more with the smaller guys than the giants like Baer or Carnera.

Watching the Conn fight, one cant help but wonder if Robinson gain some weight, he might have done the same thing about lol.

Marciano was not trailing on the scorecards like Louis was vs his middleweights. Though Charles went the distant, he was well beating on points.
Indeed. Louis probably didn't move enough to catch the smaller guys as easily as he could. Too conservative, too careful. It is worth noting by Louis' own admission he drained himself for the first one- that may have played a factor in Conn I.

As for Robinson... Too much exchanging, if he couldn't put away Joey Maxim I'd fear for his life getting in there with Louis. As for the scorecards... And Marciano in my view was trailing versus Walcott by a wide margin. He won the middle rounds but the early rnds +KD and rounds 7-13 were all JJW by a mile, IMO. Charles suffered a lot more, he was definitely the more faded one at that point. I also like to think his and Moore's less mobile standup styles were a lot more vulnerable to crowding.
Swarmer is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2011, 03:53 PM   #65
Dempsey1238
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 5,015
vCash: 1000
Default Re: The Top 20 HW List is Complete

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jorodz View Post
as an experiment, if you replaced "marciano" with "wlad klitschko", how much of that wouldn't be true? obviously omit the fights with louis, walcott, moore and charles but much like marciano wlad is cleaning out his era and "thats really all you can ask". wlad has fought guys ranked number 1, not his fault they aren't all that good. wlad is "fac[ing] the best of his era, you cant ask any more from the guy." marciano is better than wlad but his competition is often justified for being the best in a relatively more era, same as it is today

When Wlad retires, I would feel the same way about him also.

He might get in the top 8 or so also.
I dont rank Wald because he is still active. If he goes on and beats Haye, cleans out the rest of the division, I think Wlad would earn major top ten points.

What Wlad lacks is not rematching all his losses. Were Marciano rematch all his close fights.
Dempsey1238 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2011, 03:57 PM   #66
Dempsey1238
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 5,015
vCash: 1000
Default Re: The Top 20 HW List is Complete

[quote=Swarmer;8596761]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dempsey1238 View Post

Indeed. Louis probably didn't move enough to catch the smaller guys as easily as he could. Too conservative, too careful. It is worth noting by Louis' own admission he drained himself for the first one- that may have played a factor in Conn I.

As for Robinson... Too much exchanging, if he couldn't put away Joey Maxim I'd fear for his life getting in there with Louis. As for the scorecards... And Marciano in my view was trailing versus Walcott by a wide margin. He won the middle rounds but the early rnds +KD and rounds 7-13 were all JJW by a mile, IMO. Charles suffered a lot more, he was definitely the more faded one at that point. I also like to think his and Moore's less mobile standup styles were a lot more vulnerable to crowding.
Marciano was blinded vs Walcott though, I had Marciano ahead on the score cards going into round 6, before Walcott took over from 7 on.
Its not true that JJW was ahead by a mile though, had Rocky won the last 3 rounds, the fight ends in a draw.

Marciano pretty much had the Moore fight wrap up by round 5, and Marciano never let Charles have the ball back after round 5(I heard the broadcast, Charles was pretty much a punching bag from 6 on) Charles did most of the face damage in the first 4 rounds, cutting Marciano over the eye in round 2.
Dempsey1238 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2011, 04:00 PM   #67
Jorodz
watching Gatti Ward 1...
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Canada, eh? Roy Jones, Jack Daniels and Grandma's Boy
Posts: 10,825
vCash: 1139
Default Re: The Top 20 HW List is Complete

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unforgiven View Post
Well, I think Lewis and Foreman are comparable overall. Lewis beat a greater number of contenders, but lost to a couple of ordinary ones by KO.
Foreman doesn't have the depth, but has a better top win, was deprived of his title only by a great fighter, and his comeback is all a bonus really.
I think both of them are generally overrated, and that's reflected by this forum's list as compiled by reznick.

Dempsey has some holes in his resume, but did remarkably well as champion considering the layoffs he took while dabbling in a movie career.
The win over Fred Fulton is underrated, considering it was almost considered a championship fight then, and would certainly rank as the equivalent of a world title belt or two in modern times.
Tommy Gibbons was a heck of a fighter to beat after a 2-year layoff. And Dempsey was past his best, but proved great stamina and pace in that one.
Brennan was pretty good, Sharkey was pretty good.
Firpo's "punch" that deposited Dempsey out of the ring was at the very least a half-push, as shown by the surviving film, so maybe Firpo caught a break too. I think Dempsey proved himself the superior fighter clearly enough, all things considered, and was already past his best. Dempsey would probably beat Firpo 5/5 times, and quickly too. A prime Dempsey would make it much cleaner.

Overall, Dempsey's results impress me.
good post and good counterpoints. dempseys career though is often defined by unfilmed reports of his fights with clumsy giants. fulton was tall and had power but i think he's overrated by a win over langford. again, dempsey had skills for sure and was a monster in his prime but simply a monster who didn't prove it against many or any great fighters. the greatest fighters he fought were either too small (gibbons), nut shotted (sharkey) or outclassed him (tunney). on terms of reputation and reports, he's tops. on terms of objective results, i don't see a high ranking at all. if he wasn't part of the roaring 20s, the pinnacle of sports in america, he wouldn't be remembered so fondly. the fact that he was part of the first million dollar gate, destroyed giants and was around with seabiscuit, babe ruth and bobby jones gave him the aura of rose coloured nostalgia that comes with being part of the golden era of sports. drop him in another decade, i think he's remember differently
Jorodz is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2011, 04:01 PM   #68
Jorodz
watching Gatti Ward 1...
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Canada, eh? Roy Jones, Jack Daniels and Grandma's Boy
Posts: 10,825
vCash: 1139
Default Re: The Top 20 HW List is Complete

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dempsey1238 View Post
When Wlad retires, I would feel the same way about him also.

He might get in the top 8 or so also.
I dont rank Wald because he is still active. If he goes on and beats Haye, cleans out the rest of the division, I think Wlad would earn major top ten points.

What Wlad lacks is not rematching all his losses. Were Marciano rematch all his close fights.
absolutely and unlike others, rematches with his conquerors were possible for the most part
Jorodz is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2011, 04:08 PM   #69
Swarmer
Patrick
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: You know you done fucked up right? You know that right?
Posts: 9,850
vCash: 1035
Default Re: The Top 20 HW List is Complete

[quote=Dempsey1238;8596796]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Swarmer View Post

Marciano was blinded vs Walcott though, I had Marciano ahead on the score cards going into round 6, before Walcott took over from 7 on.
Its not true that JJW was ahead by a mile though, had Rocky won the last 3 rounds, the fight ends in a draw.

Marciano pretty much had the Moore fight wrap up by round 5, and Marciano never let Charles have the ball back after round 5(I heard the broadcast, Charles was pretty much a punching bag from 6 on) Charles did most of the face damage in the first 4 rounds, cutting Marciano over the eye in round 2.
And the ultimate reason for that blindness was that Marciano was cut in the first place through head clashes- that Walcott certainly didn't cause. STRONGLY disagree about Marciano leading into R6, JJW won 1-3 by quite a bit imo, and I gave the Rock R5-6. Most agree that Walcott would have had it in the bag if not for the knockout- and I stand by that opinion.

As for Charles being a punching bag- He did very well in R7-8, it was just that Marciano had begun to land past R6 worth anything. It was the 9th and 10th that sealed Charles' fate. That was when it became one-sided.It was much more competitive than you make it seem before that. Agreed on the Moore fight.
Swarmer is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2011, 04:24 PM   #70
Dempsey1238
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 5,015
vCash: 1000
Default Re: The Top 20 HW List is Complete

[quote=Swarmer;8596863]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dempsey1238 View Post

And the ultimate reason for that blindness was that Marciano was cut in the first place through head clashes- that Walcott certainly didn't cause. STRONGLY disagree about Marciano leading into R6, JJW won 1-3 by quite a bit imo, and I gave the Rock R5-6. Most agree that Walcott would have had it in the bag if not for the knockout- and I stand by that opinion.

As for Charles being a punching bag- He did very well in R7-8, it was just that Marciano had begun to land past R6 worth anything. It was the 9th and 10th that sealed Charles' fate. That was when it became one-sided.It was much more competitive than you make it seem before that. Agreed on the Moore fight.
The scorecards say other wise, Walcott would have still retain the title on the draw though.

I had it 2-2 going in round 6. Round 5 not counting for reasons of it being a real short clip.
Walcott took rounds 1 and 2, and I think Marciano took 3 and 4. He relly trap Walcott on the ropes in the 4th.

Charles was still fighting back, but Marciano was winning these rounds on my card, he stagger I belive Rock in the 9th or 8th, and I belive I gave 1 round to Charles from 6 on. It was about

1 Charles
2 Charles
3 Charles
4 Charles
5 Marciano
6 Marciano
7 Marciano
8 Marciano
9 Marciano
10 Marciano
11 Marciano
12 Even
13 Marciano
14 Marciano
15 Marciano.
Dempsey1238 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2011, 05:13 PM   #71
mattdonnellon
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,994
vCash: 1000
Default Re: The Top 20 HW List is Complete

Reznick, could you tot up all the original lists to see who got the nearest on points 1-20, not to pick the best poster, but the CONSENSUS poster, down to the most contrary poster?!
mattdonnellon is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2011, 05:31 PM   #72
janitor
P4P King
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 21,969
vCash: 1000
Default Re: The Top 20 HW List is Complete

I don't think that any fighters position on that list is hard to defend.
janitor is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2011, 06:21 PM   #73
Beatle
Sheer Analysis
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,507
vCash: 366
Default Re: The Top 20 HW List is Complete

I hope you put the video in a new, separate thread... I'm gonna wait.
Beatle is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2011, 08:52 PM   #74
anarci
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: SAN GABRIEL VALLEY
Posts: 12,225
vCash: 1000
Default Re: The Top 20 HW List is Complete

Actually a better list than most. Except i would have squezzed Bowe in there and put Holyfield and Tyson higher.
anarci is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2011, 11:46 PM   #75
Bill1234
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 4,006
vCash: 1000
Default Re: The Top 20 HW List is Complete

Foreman seems a bit high, other than that I can't really argue with the picks.
Bill1234 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Reply

Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump






All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:23 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Boxing News 24 Forum 2015