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Old 01-07-2011, 04:26 PM   #16
IntentionalButt
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Default Re: 'Greatest Hoax Perpetrated on the Public'

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Originally Posted by Il Duce View Post
World International Butt,

Sam Michael, the 'live gate' promoter from Lewiston, Maine,

'couldn't give tickets away for this sham'
Quote:
Originally Posted by prime View Post
Oh, boy.

Mercifully, we will not go around again with this topic.
Slow motion footage, guys. Punch landed. Legitimate KD. Deal with it.
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Old 01-07-2011, 04:31 PM   #17
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Default Re: 'Greatest Hoax Perpetrated on the Public'

MR. I.B.

"slow-motion footage'

Ringside seats,,,,,Jimmy Cannon, Bill Heinz Jr., Rocky Marciano, George Chuvalo,
Terry Downes

'that punch couldn't squash a grape'
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Old 01-07-2011, 04:33 PM   #18
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Default Re: 'Greatest Hoax Perpetrated on the Public'

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4:35 lmao,
4:15 the little jab to the other guys trainer

at least that event was comical

and it did have a memorable atmosphere especially with ali being at ringside being a complete cunt to george which added to it nicely
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Old 01-07-2011, 04:35 PM   #19
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Default Re: 'Greatest Hoax Perpetrated on the Public'

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MR. I.B.

"slow-motion footage'

Ringside seats,,,,,Jimmy Cannon, Bill Heinz Jr., Rocky Marciano, George Chuvalo,
Terry Downes

'that punch couldn't squash a grape'
Famous people can be wrong, and can be caught up in mass hysteria just as easily as any layman.
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Old 01-07-2011, 05:06 PM   #20
Il Duce
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Default Re: 'Greatest Hoax Perpetrated on the Public'

I always went by Ali sparring partner Joey 'Shotgun Sheldon' Shelton.

In 1965, a medoicre Cleveland-based Heavyweight, 10-7-2 (6 KO's)
All 5' 8", 190 lbs.

I sparred over 100 rounds with Ali,,,,,,,,and he never put me down, even when I
was told to let him hit me.
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Old 01-07-2011, 05:17 PM   #21
prime
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Default Re: 'Greatest Hoax Perpetrated on the Public'

Quote:
Originally Posted by Il Duce View Post
MR. I.B.

"slow-motion footage'

Ringside seats,,,,,Jimmy Cannon, Bill Heinz Jr., Rocky Marciano, George Chuvalo,
Terry Downes

'that punch couldn't squash a grape'
Couldn't crush one either, supposedly.

For the record, I believe the knockdown was legit; timing and enough power caught Sonny well enough to make him reach for the canvas.

Our good friend Stonehands, for one, steadfastly refuses to believe such a punch could floor the big, bad Sonny Liston.

I agree.

It's just that this was no longer the big, bad Bear. It was an impersonator. This was a fighter diminished --very possibly by heroin.

So, looking at the slo-mo, it looks to me like a legitimate impact and fall.

But, as I see it, and for reasons forever nebulous, Liston took the opportunity to call it a day.
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Old 01-07-2011, 05:25 PM   #22
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Default Re: 'Greatest Hoax Perpetrated on the Public'

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Couldn't crush one either, supposedly.

For the record, I believe the knockdown was legit; timing and enough power caught Sonny well enough to make him reach for the canvas.

Our good friend Stonehands, for one, steadfastly refuses to believe such a punch could floor the big, bad Sonny Liston.

I agree.

It's just that this was no longer the big, bad Bear. It was an impersonator. This was a fighter diminished --very possibly by heroin.

So, looking at the slo-mo, it looks to me like a legitimate impact and fall.

But, as I see it, and for reasons forever nebulous, Liston took the opportunity to call it a day.

We are in complete agreement.

In the filmed age we've seen many quick short right hands like that rob many a man of his equilibrium score many a knockdown since then (and surely countless times before, albeit with less documented evidence). Just because it isn't a classic cinematic beauty of a power punch doesn't mean it wasn't good enough to get the job done (especially, as you say, on the deflated shell of the one-time bad man).

The "phantom punch" is myth.

There being something shady on Liston's end can certainly be speculated on (although he did get up - only to be waved off - in a very bizarre scene).
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Old 01-07-2011, 07:35 PM   #23
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Default Re: 'Greatest Hoax Perpetrated on the Public'

I think Liston lost the fight the moment he heard that Ali had a hernia


Thats when everything really changed imo
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Old 01-08-2011, 11:38 AM   #24
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Default Re: 'Greatest Hoax Perpetrated on the Public'

Ali didn't seem to think the KD was legit.
He shouted at Sonny to get up, and looked disgusted and angry that Sonny had gone down.

I don't care what he said later about "anchor punch", his instant reaction is there for all to see.
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Old 01-08-2011, 12:11 PM   #25
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Default Re: 'Greatest Hoax Perpetrated on the Public'

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I think Liston lost the fight the moment he heard that Ali had a hernia


Thats when everything really changed imo
Indeed, Liston lost all motivation at that point.

He had trained down to a shredded 208lbs of muscle, then Ali gets the Hernia & the extreme conditioning of Sonny was completely wasted.

After that he saw the fight as just a payday, not the revenge he previously had his sights on.
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Old 01-08-2011, 12:42 PM   #26
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Default Re: 'Greatest Hoax Perpetrated on the Public'

Don King time and again ...

His ABC Tournment.
His stealing of Ali's purse after the Holmes bout.
His multiple rape of Holmes and the entire heavyweight division in the 1980's.
The theft of Frankie Randall's title in the Chavez rematch. A horrible robbery.
His theft and exploitation of Mike Tyson's career.
Trying to get Buster Douglas' title revoked after the Tyson upset.
Tyson/McNeely.
The Lewis/Holyfield draw in their first bout.
His endless manipulation of white and black cultures ...

This is just off the top of my head ... many have forgotten what a nasty MoFo Don was for a very long time ...
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Old 01-08-2011, 12:49 PM   #27
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Default Re: 'Greatest Hoax Perpetrated on the Public'

he grant.

The guy still owes Jeff 'Candy Slim' Merritt money from 1974 (vs. Henry Clark).

As Jeff Merritt said, after the fight, 'Don got the check, and he headed back to
Cleveland and I headed back home to Kansas City'

He said, 'he he was going to send me my money, after he deposited the check, and it cleared'. Later I found out, he got cash from the promoter out in Oakland.

When I called him about it, he said the check bounced,,,,,,,'I'll kill that ****'
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Old 01-08-2011, 12:57 PM   #28
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Default Re: 'Greatest Hoax Perpetrated on the Public'

The Ali - Holmes fight was something of a distasteful Flim-Flam exercise, Ali Camp insiders Knew Ali wasnt right long before this fight, Dr Ferdy Percheco (?) having bailed out in disgust some years before, Notwitstanding Ali's naturally reduced physical capabilities through ageing, subsequent post fight revelations about Drug taking to reduce weight and cure thyroid problems really does make one shake ones head in sadness that those closest to egotist supreme Ali put the money first, they will of known how good Holmes was Also.

Of Course there was till some pips to squeeze - Ali Berbick then had to be tucked away offshore. for the last roll of the dice.
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Old 01-08-2011, 01:14 PM   #29
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Default Re: 'Greatest Hoax Perpetrated on the Public'

Herbert Muhammad,,,,,,

'I'M THE MANAGER, I MAKE ALL THE DEALS'
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Old 01-10-2011, 06:26 PM   #30
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Default Re: 'Greatest Hoax Perpetrated on the Public'

Quote:
Originally Posted by prime View Post
Couldn't crush one either, supposedly.

For the record, I believe the knockdown was legit; timing and enough power caught Sonny well enough to make him reach for the canvas.

Our good friend Stonehands, for one, steadfastly refuses to believe such a punch could floor the big, bad Sonny Liston.

I agree.

It's just that this was no longer the big, bad Bear. It was an impersonator. This was a fighter diminished --very possibly by heroin.

So, looking at the slo-mo, it looks to me like a legitimate impact and fall.

But, as I see it, and for reasons forever nebulous, Liston took the opportunity to call it a day.
You have an interesting theory, prime, one that is simple and more plausible than most. However, I remember looking at Ali's positioning with the shot and it is anything but what would be expected to floor anything but a dead Sonny. In sum:

- I'm not sure his right foot was even on the canvas, never mind pivoted.

- Not only that, it was crossed behind his lead foot.

- Not only that, but his right wasn't thrown in a straight line -it was thrown across and to the left.

Ali had exactly one "KO 1" in his career besides this dubious one: Jimmy Robinson who was 1-2 at the time and finished up with 8-25 and 16 losses by KO. Ali was not the kind of puncher who pull of this kind of KO on this kind of fighter. It is even less likely considering his positioning when he threw it. Hell, even he knew it was a sham. That famous picture of him yelling at a prone Sonny -he's saying "Get up you yellow dog."

Liston was, by the way, not as dissipated as you say -at least not then as far as I know. The heroin, if he did it, came later.

I'm no conspiracy theorist, but any dope looking at Sonny's razzable performance when knocked down knows that something ain't right here. Considering his well-known connections in the shade, it is very likely that this was a dive.

Last edited by Stonehands89; 01-10-2011 at 06:48 PM.
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