Boxing  

Forum Home Boxing Forum European British Classic Aussie MMA Training
Go Back   Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum


Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 01-10-2011, 07:00 PM   #31
Duodenum
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 5,802
vCash: 1000
Default Re: 'Greatest Hoax Perpetrated on the Public'

Liston reportedly told his wife Gerry that while the knockdown in Lewiston was legitimate, the knockout itself wasn't, that he would have gotten up if Ali had moved promptly to a neutral corner instead of standing over him.

In Miami Beach, Sonny was buckled similarly by a cross which nearly drove him down to his right knee 20 seconds into round three, but he caught himself and wobbled back to a neutral corner to stabilize.

When I review the Lewiston knockdown in slow motion, I zero in on the back of Liston's head, which jolts sharply rearward upon impact of that right. (This effect of impact is not discernible at live speed.) At the moment it struck, Sonny's left foot was off the floor for repositioning. I'm satisfied that it was a valid knockdown.

My beef is with Walcott's deference to Fleischer, robbing us all of a more satisfactory and conclusive ending. It should have continued, and Jersey Joe should have ignored any ringside entreaties not coming from either corner.
Duodenum is online now  Top
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 01-10-2011, 07:21 PM   #32
Il Duce
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 3,486
vCash: 500
Default Re: 'Greatest Hoax Perpetrated on the Public'

Punches when viewing through a slow-motion tape can reveal many things.

But what it cannot measure, is the force (sound) that it makes when landing.

Rocky Macrciano who was there, right at ringside, and just under Ali-Liston where
the action took place in the ring.

Rocky Marciano;
'The punch had no force, there was nothing behind it'

'Yes, there was a punch, but Ali was parrying to his right and while throwing that type of awkward punch, and it's impossile to get the full force into it'.

"Ali may have gotten about 6 inches of power into it, maybe enough to get Sonny's
attention, but not enough to put him down and out for 17 seconds.
Il Duce is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2011, 07:42 PM   #33
IntentionalButt
Nash Equilibrium Debunker
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Boston
Posts: 115,668
vCash: 10000
Default Re: 'Greatest Hoax Perpetrated on the Public'

Just an aside: the "KO1" statistic means nothing really. The round has very little bearing when it comes to one-shot knockdowns or knockouts. It is, after all - one shot. That can happen at any time.

The question is, can one shot from Muhammad Ali at any given time be good enough to drop (not necessarily stop or render unconscious, but drop) any given heavyweight on any given night? The answer, in my view is a very robust yes. Toss in that Sonny wasn't quite Sonny anymore at that point, and that he may or may not have been planning to take the low road at the first opportunity anyway...and it's certainly reasonable that an off-balance quick right hand from Ali could have dropped him legitimately (and did, IMO). That it was in the 1st round, and Ali hadn't happened to score many knockdowns or knockouts in the first round isn't really relevant. One shot from all but the most powderpuff heavyweights (we're talking like Zuri Lawrence) is good enough at any given moment in any round if it lands the right way. While he didn't have hands of stone I certainly rate Ali as a pretty decent puncher and no powderpuff...lack of blowouts in <3 minutes notwithstanding.
IntentionalButt is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2011, 07:50 PM   #34
IntentionalButt
Nash Equilibrium Debunker
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Boston
Posts: 115,668
vCash: 10000
Default Re: 'Greatest Hoax Perpetrated on the Public'

Quote:
Originally Posted by Il Duce View Post
Punches when viewing through a slow-motion tape can reveal many things.

But what it cannot measure, is the force (sound) that it makes when landing.

Rocky Macrciano who was there, right at ringside, and just under Ali-Liston where
the action took place in the ring.

Rocky Marciano;
'The punch had no force, there was nothing behind it'

'Yes, there was a punch, but Ali was parrying to his right and while throwing that type of awkward punch, and it's impossile to get the full force into it'.

"Ali may have gotten about 6 inches of power into it, maybe enough to get Sonny's
attention, but not enough to put him down and out for 17 seconds.
I've seen dozens of guys get KTFO both soundlessly and by very short punches. It happens quite routinely on ESPN2, actually (where they often mismatch the showcased prospect du jour with opponents of suspect punch resistance).

Plus, I'm only of the opinion that the punch knocking Sonny down was legit - him staying down for 17 seconds and flopping back down on his first attempt to rise all falls under the category of "potential screwiness between Liston & seedy elements)".
IntentionalButt is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2011, 08:01 PM   #35
Il Duce
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 3,486
vCash: 500
Default Re: 'Greatest Hoax Perpetrated on the Public'

Mr. Int. Butt,

Good points, but Ali wasn't knocking anybody down.
At least, thats what all his sparring partners said after being interviewed after that fight.
And many of those guys were 185 lb. guys, who had previously been knocked-out.
Joey 'Shotgun Sheldon' Shelton, had gone over 100 rounds with Ali, and had never been
knocked down, let alone knocked out during those sessions.

The 'big' problem with Sonny, going into that fight, was that his punch had left him.
His 4-week session at Dedham, Massachusetts and 3-weeks at Poland Spring, Maine
were semi-disasters, as Sonny only was able to score a handful of flash knockdowns
on his sparring partners during 7-weeks of sparring.

Take into account the money issues, and the multiple problems, Sonny just took the
easy way.
Booze (J & B) was the big problem before that fight.
Of course, he could have made it look better.
Il Duce is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2011, 02:59 AM   #36
Unforgiven
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 12,006
vCash: 1000
Default Re: 'Greatest Hoax Perpetrated on the Public'

For all those who say the knockdown was legit :
What do you make of Ali's instant reaction ?
(the apparent anger, gesturing Liston to get up, shouting at him, allegedly "get up and fight, you bum!" or words to that effect)

If that punch had landed with any sort of sufficient force, why would Ali react in that way ?

Also, when the fight was stopped apparently Ali was seen to say, "He lied down" to his brother Rudy.
And in the post-fight interview and during the extended replay, Ali shouts at his entourage at one point "Don't say nothing !" (ie. Don't say anything ! Let me deal with this).

Ali spun the story good, even though he didn't know what punch it was, and the next day they had Stepin Fetchitt talking about "the anchor punch" again (something Fetchitt had actually been talking about BEFORE the fight ...... yet Ali didn't say anything about it in the immediate post-fight interview.)
Unforgiven is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2011, 03:34 AM   #37
IntentionalButt
Nash Equilibrium Debunker
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Boston
Posts: 115,668
vCash: 10000
Default Re: 'Greatest Hoax Perpetrated on the Public'

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unforgiven View Post
For all those who say the knockdown was legit :
What do you make of Ali's instant reaction ?
(the apparent anger, gesturing Liston to get up, shouting at him, allegedly "get up and fight, you bum!" or words to that effect)

If that punch had landed with any sort of sufficient force, why would Ali react in that way ?

Also, when the fight was stopped apparently Ali was seen to say, "He lied down" to his brother Rudy.
And in the post-fight interview and during the extended replay, Ali shouts at his entourage at one point "Don't say nothing !" (ie. Don't say anything ! Let me deal with this).

Ali spun the story good, even though he didn't know what punch it was, and the next day they had Stepin Fetchitt talking about "the anchor punch" again (something Fetchitt had actually been talking about BEFORE the fight ...... yet Ali didn't say anything about it in the immediate post-fight interview.)
This is a good look:
BORKED

Pause anywhere between 1:11, 1:12, 1:13.

Note the ripples of tension in his deltoids and pecs at and immediately following the moment of collision. That was a hard little punch. Play it over a few times from 1:09 and note the clearly involuntary turning in of Sonny's head, and the ripples sent down his back from the impact.

The fact is that it was just a very quick punch on the button.

The speculation on everything that transpired from the moment of the KD on is all fair play. There is no incontrovertible proof that Liston didn't take a dive...and all signs really do point to him doing so. The film is however itself (IMO) incontrovertible proof that Ali hit him with a punch that made him go down, not of his own volition.

It was very much in Ali's character to taunt a foe while down. Besides, Ali knew he hit him. You can see the force as outlined above. Ali certainly must have felt the contact...and Liston absolutely did.

The theory that Ali himself wasn't even sure he landed and had to ask his corner if they saw contact is just totally crackpot, if you ask me. It's there on film. It happened. You just don't hit something that weighs 215 lbs and not feel it.
IntentionalButt is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2011, 07:03 AM   #38
Stevie G
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: London,England
Posts: 8,987
vCash: 1000
Default Re: 'Greatest Hoax Perpetrated on the Public'

Quote:
Originally Posted by apollack View Post
Foreman vs. the five wasn't a hoax, believe me, it was no easy task for George.

Ali - Liston II will be forever debated.
Foreman should have had a proper fight instead of 'The Farce In Toronto' That exhibition accomplished nothing.
Stevie G is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2011, 08:23 AM   #39
Unforgiven
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 12,006
vCash: 1000
Default Re: 'Greatest Hoax Perpetrated on the Public'

Quote:
Originally Posted by IntentionalButt View Post
This is a good look:
BORKED

Pause anywhere between 1:11, 1:12, 1:13.

Note the ripples of tension in his deltoids and pecs at and immediately following the moment of collision. That was a hard little punch. Play it over a few times from 1:09 and note the clearly involuntary turning in of Sonny's head, and the ripples sent down his back from the impact.

The fact is that it was just a very quick punch on the button.

The speculation on everything that transpired from the moment of the KD on is all fair play. There is no incontrovertible proof that Liston didn't take a dive...and all signs really do point to him doing so. The film is however itself (IMO) incontrovertible proof that Ali hit him with a punch that made him go down, not of his own volition.

It was very much in Ali's character to taunt a foe while down. Besides, Ali knew he hit him. You can see the force as outlined above. Ali certainly must have felt the contact...and Liston absolutely did.

The theory that Ali himself wasn't even sure he landed and had to ask his corner if they saw contact is just totally crackpot, if you ask me. It's there on film. It happened. You just don't hit something that weighs 215 lbs and not feel it.
I know Ali hit him, but it wasn't a hard punch.
I've done all the replay stuff myself, and it's a complete red herring. If you look at any athlete of Liston's build making a sudden movement you will see "shock ripples" or whatever. It's no proof that he got hit hard at all. Same with the tension in Ali's deltoids and pecs - he was in good shape, and definition and lines come out with any quick movement. And there's no denying that Ali lashed out fast, it just wasn't a solid blow. It smacks of desperation that we even feel a need to analyse the slow-mo over and over in an effort to conclude the punch was hard.

You make as if Ali's reaction was typical of him, but it wasn't. He may have stood over an opponent or two, hands held aloft in Victory, but he never showed that reaction of anger and contempt, "shouting at the bum to get up and fight".

Liston took a dive. For reasons unknown.
Unforgiven is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2011, 08:30 AM   #40
red cobra
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: The Sea of Tranquility
Posts: 13,039
vCash: 1000
Default Re: 'Greatest Hoax Perpetrated on the Public'

There was no way that punch or that ko was legitamite...I've never thought so.
red cobra is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2011, 08:59 AM   #41
Il Duce
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 3,486
vCash: 500
Default Re: 'Greatest Hoax Perpetrated on the Public'

Fighters and Promoters who declared to take a stand against social injustices,
then took the big money to go over and fight in South Africa.
Il Duce is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2011, 09:58 AM   #42
DKD
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,054
vCash: 610
Default Re: 'Greatest Hoax Perpetrated on the Public'

Haye v Harrison.

Greatest hoax perpetuated on the public EVER!

Nothing mentioned here comes close to that rip off...
DKD is online now  Top
Reply With Quote
Reply

Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump





All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:05 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Boxing News 24 Forum 2013