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Old 01-08-2011, 06:09 PM   #46
Unforgiven
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Default Re: Which of the lineal heavyweight champions would Sam Langford have beaten?

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Langford was badly out of shape for the fight, and it showed. Fulton appears to have jabbed him at will, although Langford seemed to have success countering the right hand, forcing Fulton back to the jab, for which Langford had no apparent answer.

In his corner, after the fourth or fifth, Langford begged his corner to open up his blinded left eye, believing there to be swelling - but there was none. Langford, whilst trying to close the gap on Fulton had taken a big blow to the head which appears to have blinded him in his left eye. The damaging blow was apparently to the temple, not the eye. Langford described it as an enormous pain in his head.

From memory, Moyle has not sense that this is a tank job.
Possibly a detached retina.

There was speculation at the time that Langford had tanked it, that's all I know. Out-of-shape makes sense, no point training too hard for a fight you're going to lose.
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Old 01-08-2011, 06:14 PM   #47
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Default Re: Which of the lineal heavyweight champions would Sam Langford have beaten?

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There was speculation at the time that Langford had tanked it, that's all I know. Out-of-shape makes sense, no point training too hard for a fight you're going to lose.
If that constitutes evidence, Langford was involved in a huge number of fights where the fight result was pre-arranged; he was rarely in shape post Willard-Johnson.
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Old 01-08-2011, 06:21 PM   #48
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Default Re: Which of the lineal heavyweight champions would Sam Langford have beaten?

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If that constitutes evidence, Langford was involved in a huge number of fights where the fight result was pre-arranged; he was rarely in shape post Willard-Johnson.
I'm not saying it consitutes evidence. But he's not going to be in shape if it's a tank job either.
Yes, he was often said to be out of shape.
Also, he's believed to have deliberately underperformed, (esp. against white fighters), often too.
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Old 01-08-2011, 06:27 PM   #49
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Default Re: Which of the lineal heavyweight champions would Sam Langford have beaten?

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I'm not saying it consitutes evidence. But he's not going to be in shape if it's a tank job either.
Yes, he was often said to be out of shape.
Also, he's believed to have deliberately underperformed, (esp. against white fighters), often too.
Certainly he seems to have against Ketchel.


You see evidence of fixed fights wherever you look though. To me, it seems more than a little extreme.
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Old 01-08-2011, 06:40 PM   #50
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Default Re: Which of the lineal heavyweight champions would Sam Langford have beaten?

[quote=janitor;8631450]
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Not good logic.

It would be a bit like arguing that Larry Holmes always had the tools to beat Muhamad Ali. Maybe he did, but I would not inferr it from that fight.



Langford would not just have lost his reflexes but also his feet.

Read reports of a past prime Langford toying with the same Harry Wills who would later demolish Fred Fulton.



The fact that he was beating Tate at that stage of his career should give you pause for thought.



Langford is exactly the type of fighter that Lewis should steer clear of. He is the type of fighter who might manufacture his worst case scenario, rather than exploit an opening.
Does that not suggest moreso that it was perhaps the style of Fulton that caused him problems?
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Old 01-08-2011, 06:42 PM   #51
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Default Re: Which of the lineal heavyweight champions would Sam Langford have beaten?

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Certainly he seems to have against Ketchel.


You see evidence of fixed fights wherever you look though. To me, it seems more than a little extreme.
I don't see evidence in this case, I'm just relaying what I read in a couple of contemporary articles.
It doesn't seem unreasonable at all, knowing Langford's reputation as an exploited fighter who had to fight handcuffed sometimes, and Fulton's rep and a "suspect-chinned" white heavyweight being groomed for a title shot.

Fixed fights do exist, mismatches do exist, professional losers do exist. Professional boxing is a little bit dodgy. Some fighters just turn up to lose and get paid. That's just the way things are.
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Old 01-08-2011, 06:55 PM   #52
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Default Re: Which of the lineal heavyweight champions would Sam Langford have beaten?

Yeah, no doubt, but just as some are in total denial about that, you seem to be at the other extreme.
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Old 01-08-2011, 07:10 PM   #53
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Default Re: Which of the lineal heavyweight champions would Sam Langford have beaten?

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Yeah, no doubt, but just as some are in total denial about that, you seem to be at the other extreme.
I've never really thought of myself as holding an extreme view on the matter.
I think most fights are legit, or not outright 'fixed'.
But I also think most outright fixes have gone unsdiscovered/unproven.
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Old 01-08-2011, 07:20 PM   #54
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Default Re: Which of the lineal heavyweight champions would Sam Langford have beaten?

Langford beats them all

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxJOy_taioQ[/ame]

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
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Old 01-08-2011, 11:31 PM   #55
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Default Re: Which of the lineal heavyweight champions would Sam Langford have beaten?

Has anyone gone back and tried to pinpoint where they think Sam eyesight really started to go?
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Old 01-09-2011, 05:01 AM   #56
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Default Re: Which of the lineal heavyweight champions would Sam Langford have beaten?

Sorry but I don't see a 5'6 fighter - no matter how great - standing much of a chance against Wlad, let alone Lewis. Wlad has a vulnerability at the bottom of his face, but I doubt it will be a factor; just like it hasn't been during any of his fights the last straight seven years. Power may be the equalizer, but you still have to land it. Fulton is terrible yet he manages to gives Langford a horrific beating in the same year that Sam knocked out many big names. What gives?

Wlad is just too good at fighting tall, cautious and controlling the range. His opposition may not be great, but how many opponents connected with a solid shot during the last seven years? How many other heavyweights can say that, even the ones who fought poor opposition? Byrd and Chambers may not carry that much power, but they sure as hell as are fast and land their punches against every other opponent. But not Wlad.

Look at how helpless Tua was against Lewis. And mind you, Tua is 5'10, so he still has as much height on Langford as Ali had on Frazier. And Lewis, unlike Wlad, does not have a weak chin, I'm confident about that. I just rewatched his war with Gary Mason (RIP) and he took bombs without flinching. Whatever Langford punch comes through he'll take, and return ten times. That is not even taking into account the fact that there's no way Langford retains his power when having to punch a foot up in the air. There's a reason that Fulton, known for his inability to take a punch, still gave Langford a beating.

I'd make Langford favorite over guys like Patterson, Schmeling, L. Spinks, Sharkey and perhaps a few others. Jeffries and M. Spinks would be a 50/50 fight, Johnson the slight favorite.

Langford vs Tunney and Michael Spinks would be interesting fights. Although both won the heavyweight crown, they're career lightheavies and rank close to Langford on any solid LHW list.
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Old 01-09-2011, 08:11 AM   #57
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Default Re: Which of the lineal heavyweight champions would Sam Langford have beaten?

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Fulton is terrible yet he manages to gives Langford a horrific beating in the same year that Sam knocked out many big names. What gives?

There's a reason that Fulton, known for his inability to take a punch, still gave Langford a beating.
.
Don't get me started on this 'fix' thing again.
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Old 01-09-2011, 11:11 AM   #58
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Default Re: Which of the lineal heavyweight champions would Sam Langford have beaten?

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Has anyone gone back and tried to pinpoint where they think Sam eyesight really started to go?
Have you read the thread?
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Old 01-09-2011, 03:14 PM   #59
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Default Re: Which of the lineal heavyweight champions would Sam Langford have beaten?

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I think journeyman is a correct description of Tate, although on the film of his fight with Norfolk he looks less than that. (Personally, I thought he looked like a tank artist).
Tate held Harry Wills to a draw when the latter was the #1 ranked contender and some ringsiders seem to think that he deserved the decision.

I think that we at least have to acknowledge Tate as a contender.
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Old 01-09-2011, 03:35 PM   #60
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Default Re: Which of the lineal heavyweight champions would Sam Langford have beaten?

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I don't think so. I tend to think of him as past his best by 1915, unquestionably, but you seem to be talking about a shot fighter regarded as shot by the public - I don't see how that can be when he is knocking out world class fighters, and fighting draws with the world's best HW. He was often out of shape, but when he was in shape, as was the case with his 1916 one-punch KO of Harry Wills (possibly his best result) he absorbed an absolutley helatios beating before boxing back for the win. He wasn't training as seriously as he had, and was suffering for this, but he was still capable of outboxing Wills for spells, as seemed to be the case on their January 3rd meeting of that year.

In short, Langford was out of shape for a lot of these fights.

But I really don't think that he was "shot" or even regarded as shot, as you seem to be saying. He was unquestinably a world class fighter.

As you like it; but he was unquesitonably a world class fighter, and likely the best fighter of any weight in the world.
I don't think the fact that sombody is beating elite fighters necesarily means that they are close to their peak.

For example Joe Louis was beating the best available fighters when he fought Jersey Joe Walcott and beating world class fighters when he fought Marciano. We still wouldn't use these fights to argue that he would always have lost to these types of fighter.

By the same token we should be verry carefull about drawing inferences from the Langford Fulton fight.

Quote:
31, 26, 35, 29...
That is pleanty old enough when you have the kind of career that these guys had.

Quote:
Let's flip this then. As neither Wlad or Lewis lost to anyone who were 5'6, which fighters, outside of Tate to whom he also lost, who were 6'6 did Langford trap onto a KO?
Lewis and Wlad have not fought anybody who is 5'6'' period. Heavyweights of this height come allong once in a blue moon anyway.

There were not many world class fighters over 6'4'' during Langfords prime. Langford did KO Tate who was at least world class, plus a few journeyman types. Harry Wills was himself a good 6' 3'' as were Sandy Ferguson and George Godfrey.
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