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Old 01-10-2011, 08:42 AM   #16
Il Duce
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Default Re: Could Foreman ever defeat Ali.

Strategy beats Ali,,,,,not brawn.

Big George could have won the 1974 bout with Ali, if employed a 'fight-plan'.

One, not fight in the heat of Zaire.
Two, not in a place where Ali could utilize his 'mental war-fare'.
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Old 01-10-2011, 09:41 AM   #17
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Default Re: Could Foreman ever defeat Ali.

the rope a dope was a success on that night as it had foreman wailing away at ali with punches coming from all angles possible ali used the rope a dope to defuse foremans brute arsenal which led to big georges arm start to tire and fatigue ali sensed this and when he saw the opportunity he came out of the rope a dope and threw the combination that would eventually kayo foreman
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Old 01-10-2011, 10:31 AM   #18
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Default Re: Could Foreman ever defeat Ali.

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Originally Posted by mister View Post
the rope a dope was a success on that night as it had foreman wailing away at ali with punches coming from all angles possible ali used the rope a dope to defuse foremans brute arsenal which led to big georges arm start to tire and fatigue ali sensed this and when he saw the opportunity he came out of the rope a dope and threw the combination that would eventually kayo foreman


Huge oversimplification of the fight.
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Old 01-10-2011, 10:45 AM   #19
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Default Re: Could Foreman ever defeat Ali.

have you seen the fight have you rewinded the main rounds were the rope a dope was at its finest have you seen the way the rope a dope was incorporated into the match which led to foreman being confused when the rope a dope was in motion the rope a dope was a big factor in that fight and it helped ali beat foreman who got lured into the rope a dope and was not able to find a way to get out of the rope a dope
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Old 01-10-2011, 11:10 AM   #20
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Default Re: Could Foreman ever defeat Ali.

The 'rope-a-dope' was not a pre-fight strategy.
It was found within the fight.

Way too much credit goes to that so-called stratgey.
Big George made it so-easy for Ali.
What the hell else could Ali do for 5 Rounds.

Argentinian Gregorio Peralta did that move, 4 years earlier on George, and almost pulled it off.
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Old 01-10-2011, 11:25 AM   #21
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Default Re: Could Foreman ever defeat Ali.

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Originally Posted by mister View Post
have you seen the fight have you rewinded the main rounds were the rope a dope was at its finest have you seen the way the rope a dope was incorporated into the match which led to foreman being confused when the rope a dope was in motion the rope a dope was a big factor in that fight and it helped ali beat foreman who got lured into the rope a dope and was not able to find a way to get out of the rope a dope





Are you getting money everytime you say rope a dope or something?
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Old 01-10-2011, 11:29 AM   #22
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Default Re: Could Foreman ever defeat Ali.

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Originally Posted by Il Duce View Post
The 'rope-a-dope' was not a pre-fight strategy.
It was found within the fight.

Way too much credit goes to that so-called stratgey.
Big George made it so-easy for Ali.
What the hell else could Ali do for 5 Rounds.

Argentinian Gregorio Peralta did that move, 4 years earlier on George, and almost pulled it off.


If he didn't come out like a maniac, Ali would have just been hitting him with straight punches everytime he threw his wide looping shots, sticking and moving when on the outside, outwrestling him on the inside as he did do, and accumulated a big lead. George wouldn't have tired so eaily but what is the viable strategy for victory given his skillset?

Given the way he matches up with Ali, trying to overwhelm him was his best option.
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Old 01-10-2011, 11:38 AM   #23
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Default Re: Could Foreman ever defeat Ali.

Big George had a potent left jab.

Ali wasn't knocking anybody out (ie; Joe Bugner and Rudi Lubbers).
Just flat-out 'bad stratgey' and no plan for 'ring generalship' form George's Camp.

The 'jab' was the key. Ali, no way in hell he could have danced for 15 Rounds.
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Old 01-10-2011, 11:40 AM   #24
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Default Re: Could Foreman ever defeat Ali.

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I am not convinced that "Old" Foreman beats "Old" Ali. Old Foreman was so ponderously slow that he doesnt land a punch on any version of ali.

Dont ask me why, but on the spur of the moment, i just decided to rewatch Ali - Holmes for the first and probably last time in a very long time. Round one and two show that Holmes (who remember, is one of the all time fastest and best fighters around), Land no really serious clean blows on Ali at all. This is really interesting, because Ali has zero foot movement, and Ali virtually doesnt throw a punch in those rounds, but he still manages to duck and weave most of HOlmes shots. I cant see old Foreman's jab even look like landing, even on this version of Ali. Rounds three and four show Holmes taking over, but even still, he misses a lot of jabs and shots, and while he does land a few good ones, it is no more than a handful. And when you consider, Ali has zero punch output (almost literally) and zero lateral movement, it is astonishing that an ATG like Holmes is missing so often. Round 5 is interesting. Ali employs lateral movement for the first time in the fight. He gets on his toes and bounces. Ironically, Holmes (again, an ATG dancer himself) barely lands a clean punch, until near the end of the round, when the bouncing stops. I know people say it is Holmes taking it easy, but looking at the fight again, i dont think so. I think that Ali's rope a dope really played with more than Foremans mind. I really think Holmes was mentally wary of following Ali to the ropes and punching himself out, like foreman did. Round 6 shows that the dancing clearly took plenty out of Ali. He barely seems able to walk to centre ring. And for the (what i think is the first time), Holmes seems to start to land cleanly which each shot he throws. Saying that, amazingly, for the first time in the fight, Ali starts to throw a few punches. And he he demonstrating just how amazing he is at adapting during a fight, and lands about 6 left hand jabs to the body. That is more than i remember him landing in his entire career! This is the first fight where Ali does actually throw and land a few punches, though to be honest, there wasnt much behind them. Round 7, and Ali again enters the ring and it is obvious that he has to drag himself to centre the ring. But Ali does about 30 seconds or so, ali does start to move again, and for the first time actually lands a couple of decent Jabs, which has Holmse start to force the fight. It isnt until the end of the round where Holmes actually starts to pursue Ali on the ropes. I cant remember this round from previous viewings. It is possible that this could actually be scored as an even round or even shaded to Ali, although he didnt really land with anything with any vigour. Clearly this would be a different fight, if there was any sort of conditioning there for Ali. round 8 ends. I think that Holmes lands some of his best shots of the fight here, and it seems that Ali has been hurt the most here. I think this is the first time that Ali seems to really struggle to make Holmes miss at all. Also, amazingly, and i think that this is the first time in the entire fight where Holmes gets in close enough to actually allow Ali to try to clinch him. It is amazing there is no clinching whatsoever in the fight. I think i put this down to Holmes being very wary and not pursuing Ali in close, for fear of the rope a dope. I dont know whether to give credit for a young Holmes showing restraint and patience beyond his years, or to Ali for planting an amazing fear in the minds of his opponents. More than likely a combination of both.

Round 9 - This is easily Holmes best round, and the round where Ali just had nothing left. Holmes started to land regularly for the first time, imo, and this combined with Alis work rate dropping back to the same level as it was for the first 4 rounds. He just had nothing, i am surprised he drew himself out off the stool for the last round. round 10 was simply all Holmes.

Looking at this fight again, i think that Ali had Holmes mentally worried, and the reason it took Holmes so long to wear Ali out (he was looked worn out before round one) is because Holmes did not want to make a mistake. I think that the Rumble in the Jungle gave Ali a massive mental advantage over Holmes. Holmes one anyway, but no way did he carry him, even though i think he kos him in 2 or 3 rounds fi they rematched straight away. I think the same is true of Ali, he had Foreman Mentally.

Now with old foreman, he could not land like young foreman did in the jungle. He was too slow. He is going to (like Holmes) be very, very wary of chasing Ali to the ropes. And old Ali (even the version who fought Holmes) is going to land much more often and busier. When young and fast Holmes was missing regularly early, how is it possible that old George will land? and if he does, he will not follow it up to the ropes, so he will not take advantage. And Old George cant land the one punch ko like he did to Moorer. I think any version of Ali keeps the fight at long range, builds up the points early and hangs on in the later rounds when George realises he wont tire out, and starts to press the fight. I think Ali beats him on points.
Good post.

But I don't think it was Zaire that worried Holmes. He had sparred for many years with Ali, enough to know first hand how wily he was. How he could suddenly come alive on the ropes and hurt his man, and also how strong he was in the clinches. He probably wasn't sure just how much was left and played it a bit cautiously out of ingrained respect of the abilities Ali had used to have. He said for example that he was surprised that Ali was so weak in the clinches. That he had used to be much stronger.
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Old 01-10-2011, 11:57 AM   #25
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Default Re: Could Foreman ever defeat Ali.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Il Duce View Post
Strategy beats Ali,,,,,not brawn.

Big George could have won the 1974 bout with Ali, if employed a 'fight-plan'.

One, not fight in the heat of Zaire.
Two, not in a place where Ali could utilize his 'mental war-fare'.
Quite a few people have mentioned the Zaire heat,over the years,as one of the reasons as to why Ali beat George. Well,there WERE two fighters in the ring that night. Muhammad was just too good,and too sharp for George in 1974.
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Old 01-10-2011, 12:03 PM   #26
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Default Re: Could Foreman ever defeat Ali.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Il Duce View Post
Strategy beats Ali,,,,,not brawn.

Big George could have won the 1974 bout with Ali, if employed a 'fight-plan'.

One, not fight in the heat of Zaire.
Two, not in a place where Ali could utilize his 'mental war-fare'.
George used the 'fight-plan' that had worked so well for him in all his previous fights. Who can blame him for that?

So you think the heat in Zaire would have an adverse effect on someone from Texas, USA but would be OK for someone from Kentucky, USA. Foreman was from Texas and Ali was from Kentucky.

Tell me a place where Ali would not have been able to use 'his mental war-fare'.
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Old 01-10-2011, 12:06 PM   #27
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Default Re: Could Foreman ever defeat Ali.

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Originally Posted by abraq View Post
George used the 'fight-plan' that had worked so well for him in all his previous fights. Who can blame him for that?

So you think the heat in Zaire would have an adverse effect on someone from Texas, USA but would be OK for someone from Kentucky, USA. Foreman was from Texas and Ali was from Kentucky.

Tell me a place where Ali would not have been able to use 'his mental war-fare'.
I can recall Joe Bugner saying that the 33 year old Ali would n't be able to stand the heat in Malaysia,prior to their second fight. Aftet the bout,Joe said that he was n't as used to hot conditions as Muhammad was
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Old 01-10-2011, 12:08 PM   #28
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Default Re: Could Foreman ever defeat Ali.

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Originally Posted by abraq View Post
George used the 'fight-plan' that had worked so well for him in all his previous fights. Who can blame him for that?

So you think the heat in Zaire would have an adverse effect on someone from Texas, USA but would be OK for someone from Kentucky, USA. Foreman was from Texas and Ali was from Kentucky.

Tell me a place where Ali would not have been able to use 'his mental war-fare'.
The Arctic Circle,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,dress warm
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Old 01-10-2011, 12:10 PM   #29
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Default Re: Could Foreman ever defeat Ali.

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Originally Posted by Stevie G View Post
Quite a few people have mentioned the Zaire heat,over the years,as one of the reasons as to why Ali beat George. Well,there WERE two fighters in the ring that night. Muhammad was just too good,and too sharp for George in 1974.
As Maxim said after the fight with Robinson: "I had no airconditioner in my corner either."

As for Foreman, there's one thing to make up a strategy, another to carry it out. George was just too poor setting up his punches to beat as skilled a fighter as Ali with as much left as he had. He didn't have a straight right, for chrissakes.

Against Ali a one-two with a left hook on top (either to the head or to the body) is a good way to go. But Foreman was so poor technically that he couldn't even put together a decent one-two, never mind the left hook on top...
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Old 01-10-2011, 12:19 PM   #30
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Default Re: Could Foreman ever defeat Ali.

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Originally Posted by Bokaj View Post
As Maxim said after the fight with Robinson: "I had no airconditioner in my corner either."

As for Foreman, there's one thing to make up a strategy, another to carry it out. George was just too poor setting up his punches to beat as skilled a fighter as Ali with as much left as he had. He didn't have a straight right, for chrissakes.

Against Ali a one-two with a left hook on top (either to the head or to the body) is a good way to go. But Foreman was so poor technically that he couldn't even put together a decent one-two, never mind the left hook on top...
True. George was completely sold on his sense, and possesion, of supreme brute force. In his mind he had one simple maxim "I demolished Joe Frazier and Ken Norton. Norton and Frazier beat Ali,and gave him close fights in the rematches. Therefore I'll be able to beat Ali just as easily as I did the other two..."
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