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Old 01-21-2011, 11:25 AM   #1
Nicky P
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Default Dempsey and the fall of good teaching.....

I recently read something like a manifesto written by Jack Dempsey that someone had posted. In it, he says that he feels indirectly responsible for the dropoff in good boxing teachers and trainers.

His reasons are that he was the first fighter to popularize fighting and in turn making it a profitable business. He says that when folks saw the kind of money that could be made there, a huge influx of people from other professions attempted to break through into the sport who had no idea what they were doing. They were nothing more than slick talking hustlers posing as instructors, trainers and managers. People who had never even thrown a punch were now teaching young prospects the sweet science.

Then these hustler's pupils finshed their fighting career and some then became trainers, reteaching incorrect technique. And so on and so on....


What do you classic fans think about this? And do you think that Ali and then the 4 Horsemen had the same effect on the sport?
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Old 01-21-2011, 11:31 AM   #2
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Default Re: Dempsey and the fall of good teaching.....

I think Ali's technique is vastly superior to Dempsey's
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Old 01-21-2011, 11:42 AM   #3
Nicky P
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Default Re: Dempsey and the fall of good teaching.....

that's a frustrating response on a few levels pachilles.
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Old 01-21-2011, 11:47 AM   #4
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Default Re: Dempsey and the fall of good teaching.....

Its possible but overall there has been a strong upwards trend in teqnique. When I watch Jack Johnsone I really see very little conventional technique at all, even as recently as Max Baer I think you can see stuff like charging in with a loaded up punch
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Old 01-21-2011, 11:48 AM   #5
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Default Re: Dempsey and the fall of good teaching.....

Well, it's true.
Whenever something booms in popularity, you'll find a ton of low-quality dross being passed of as the goods, just to meet consumer demand.
And there's a "gold rush" effect to "be the next Dempsey" (or Louis, or Ali, ..... or Bruce Lee !)
On the other hand, it also creates the interest, inspiration and the numbers to produce some quality stuff too, with the right people involved and a more educated strategy.

So, there's a positive and a negative effect.
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Old 01-21-2011, 12:01 PM   #6
Nicky P
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Default Re: Dempsey and the fall of good teaching.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unforgiven View Post
Well, it's true.
Whenever something booms in popularity, you'll find a ton of low-quality dross being passed of as the goods, just to meet consumer demand.
And there's a "gold rush" effect to "be the next Dempsey" (or Louis, or Ali, ..... or Bruce Lee !)
On the other hand, it also creates the interest, inspiration and the numbers to produce some quality stuff too, with the right people involved and a more educated strategy.

So, there's a positive and a negative effect.

Good point Unforgiven. I'm of the opinion that teaching has fallen way off overall. That's just how it evolved from then to now. You can look at Joe Gans, Dempsey, then a Frazier, an Ike Williams, Ray Robinson, Tommy Hearns.... All excellent technique..... but if you look at boxing now, it's hard to come up with many pros with really good punching technique.
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Old 01-21-2011, 02:02 PM   #7
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Default Re: Dempsey and the fall of good teaching.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pachilles View Post
I think Ali's technique is vastly superior to Dempsey's
Ironicaly it isn't.

Take away both of their athletic atributes and Dempsey is by far the superior fighter!
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Old 01-21-2011, 02:41 PM   #8
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Default Re: Dempsey and the fall of good teaching.....

I think this is the reason for the dearth in quality in the heavyweight division. Trainers who don't demand discipline and don't demand more quality. And most of the big guys can earn more money for less personal risk in other sports.

There are and have been good quality fighters with good technique in every era, this latest era included. It just isn't as prevalent as it was is other eras. In the 40's and 50's, the talent ppol was so deep in the lower weights that it seemed like everyone could really fight. That wasn't the case, but there were more fighters and thus more quality fighters coming through.

There have always been standouts in every era. To claim that fighters can't punch correctly and do it wrong is a disservice to those fighters who can, and there are plenty.
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Old 01-21-2011, 03:07 PM   #9
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Default Re: Dempsey and the fall of good teaching.....

I think the bigger point is 'boxing exploding when people saw how much money Dempsey was making'. That is why we have a golden era around the 40s where the sport is loaded with talent.

Good boxing teachers didnt' disapear post-Dempsey, in fact if anything there was more. It was just as Dempsey is saying there were plenty of managers who didnt have boxing knowledge, there was still great trainers, and great gyms full with competition
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Old 01-21-2011, 03:07 PM   #10
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Default Re: Dempsey and the fall of good teaching.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor View Post
Ironicaly it isn't.

Take away both of their athletic atributes and Dempsey is by far the superior fighter!
Janitard
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Old 01-21-2011, 03:10 PM   #11
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Default Re: Dempsey and the fall of good teaching.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor View Post
Ironicaly it isn't.

Take away both of their athletic atributes and Dempsey is by far the superior fighter!
Oh so does Dempsey have a better jab than Ali then? Does he punch straighter? Does Dempsey have a Plan B? No, No and No. He does somethings better, ie turning his punches over and sitting on them, but Ali was more of the thinking 'land any punch rather than miss the punch of the century'

Ali fought well past his legs being shot Dempsey did not
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Old 01-21-2011, 03:20 PM   #12
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Default Re: Dempsey and the fall of good teaching.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor View Post
Ironicaly it isn't.

Take away both of their athletic atributes and Dempsey is by far the superior fighter!
I agree J...Dempsey with his style of bobbing and weaving, chin tucked in his shoulders,Closing the distance to get in close,where he exploded, was every bit as skilled as Ali, in his own way.
And Harry Greb was skilled in his own way.
And Henry Armstrong was skilled in his own way.
Each according to their own physical attributes...
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Old 01-21-2011, 03:23 PM   #13
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Default Re: Dempsey and the fall of good teaching.....

Dempsey's preoccupation especially seemed to be proper powerpunching technique.

In his book, he teaches fascinating --and extremely effective-- basics such as "the powerline", how to aim with the knuckles, "the falling step" with the jab, that instantly improved my performance at the gym. No one had ever taught me any similar "secrets".

And I suspect I'm not alone.
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Old 01-21-2011, 03:26 PM   #14
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Default Re: Dempsey and the fall of good teaching.....

Jack Dempsey's style fit with the,,,,,,,,,, times.
A slam-bang style.

Everybody wanted to the see the guy fight.
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Old 01-21-2011, 03:46 PM   #15
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Default Re: Dempsey and the fall of good teaching.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerPuncher View Post
Ali fought well past his legs being shot Dempsey did not
It didn't do him much good.
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