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View Poll Results: .
James Toney 13 38.24%
Joe Louis 21 61.76%
Voters: 34. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 01-21-2011, 04:32 PM   #16
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Default Re: Who had better skills, Toney or Joe Louis?

at toney having a better right hand, jab, and ring iq than louis. How do you even respond to that seriously?
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Old 01-21-2011, 04:33 PM   #17
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Default Re: Who had better skills, Toney or Joe Louis?

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Originally Posted by di tullio View Post
I have to disagree here.

I think when talking about the jab, timing, left hook, right hand, uppercut, counter punching, out thinking opponents and combination punching Joe could be brought up as one of the best of all time.
Jab - is it snappy enough? Does he recoil it quickly or is it there to be countered - ala Schmelling's/Walcott's counter rights? Left hook - great but remember we're talking about raw skill and not physical gifts...Right Hand very good, like I say its not as well timed/hidden and he can't lead with it as well. Combinations are truly his forte and hes 1 of the greatest in this area

Joes ring IQ wasn't too good, and is why he needed rematched to look better
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Old 01-21-2011, 04:36 PM   #18
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Default Re: Who had better skills, Toney or Joe Louis?

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at toney having a better right hand, jab, and ring iq than louis. How do you even respond to that seriously?
Louis doesn't have a ring IQ, if he did he'd have adjusted to the likes of Godoy and figured out to throw the uppercut, which Godoy was wide open to, instead of having Blackburn drilling it into him for the rematch.
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Old 01-21-2011, 04:37 PM   #19
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Default Re: Who had better skills, Toney or Joe Louis?

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Jab - is it snappy enough? Does he recoil it quickly or is it there to be countered - ala Schmelling's/Walcott's counter rights? Left hook - great but remember we're talking about raw skill and not physical gifts...Right Hand very good, like I say its not as well timed/hidden and he can't lead with it as well. Combinations are truly his forte and hes 1 of the greatest in this area

Joes ring IQ wasn't too good, and is why he needed rematched to look better
Some will tell you that Louis's jab is the greatest in HW history. I think that is way, way over-egging the thing, but I don't think you could say it was any worse than Toney's in all seriousness (unless you insist on looking at the pre-adjusted version, which you seem intent on doing!), I'm satisfied it is not as good myself. Also, Toney underused his horribly. An aspect of skill is deployment.

As for ring IQ's, I don't think either was astonishing. I would go for Louis if I had to, his mental discipline was absolutely extraordinary - possibly unparalleled in the whole of history, certainly not overhauled in my opinion.
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Old 01-21-2011, 04:38 PM   #20
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Default Re: Who had better skills, Toney or Joe Louis?

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Louis doesn't have a ring IQ, if he did he'd have adjusted to the likes of Godoy and figured out to throw the uppercut, which Godoy was wide open to, instead of having Blackburn drilling it into him for the rematch.
blackburn or not; it doesnt matter because joe louis is still the most devastating fighter in rematches ever; a trend that continued even after chappie died and Louis came back after the war.

toney is nothng compared to louis in terms of adaptation, and this is proven in the decisive results of all of JL's rematches
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Old 01-21-2011, 04:38 PM   #21
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Default Re: Who had better skills, Toney or Joe Louis?

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That is a bit like saying "if Toney was such a great counterpuncher then why did Jones make him look foolish".
BEcause Jones is the P4P fastest slick cookie of all time. Conn/Walcott weren't close
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Old 01-21-2011, 04:41 PM   #22
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Default Re: Who had better skills, Toney or Joe Louis?

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blackburn or not; it doesnt matter because joe louis is still the most devastating fighter in rematches ever; a trend that continued even after chappie died and Louis came back after the war.

toney is nothng compared to louis in terms of adaptation, and this is proven in the decisive results of all of JL's rematches
Umm you just pretty much stated that Louis couldn't adapt in the ring and had no plan B without someone drilling him for a rematch and then state 'Toney is nothing compared to JLs adaption'

Louis was so great in rematches because he should have adapted and was great in the first place but didn't have the ring IQ to adapt and figure out a Plan B in the ring
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Old 01-21-2011, 04:44 PM   #23
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Default Re: Who had better skills, Toney or Joe Louis?

no, i stated that JL was great in rematches even without blackburn. also i find it funny that you're highlighting joe's inability to adapt in matches that he won...what about toney losing to guys like griffin, thadzi etc? If he was genuinely so skilled and complete in terms of ring iq he couldnt have lost to these guys in his physical prime right? oh wait
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Old 01-21-2011, 04:47 PM   #24
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Default Re: Who had better skills, Toney or Joe Louis?

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BEcause Jones is the P4P fastest slick cookie of all time. Conn/Walcott weren't close
No but they had certain assets to neutralize Louis's countering ability and Walcott was dealing with an older Louis with dulled reflexes.
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Old 01-21-2011, 04:54 PM   #25
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Default Re: Who had better skills, Toney or Joe Louis?

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Some will tell you that Louis's jab is the greatest in HW history. I think that is way, way over-egging the thing, but I don't think you could say it was any worse than Toney's in all seriousness (unless you insist on looking at the pre-adjusted version, which you seem intent on doing!), I'm satisfied it is not as good myself. Also, Toney underused his horribly. An aspect of skill is deployment.

As for ring IQ's, I don't think either was astonishing. I would go for Louis if I had to, his mental discipline was absolutely extraordinary - possibly unparalleled in the whole of history, certainly not overhauled in my opinion.
I have never rated Louis's jab, for 1 thing its slower than its other punches because he doesn't throw it properly, the better defensive fighters continually slip it, he often leaves it out too often leaving him there to be countered, Schmelling took advantage of this and Johnson noted it prior to that loss. Why couldn't Louis double/trebble the jab to control faster opponents if it was so good? Why can't he step in with it to create more range?

Imagine if Louis decided to only throw the jab. Louis can use the jab as a range finder and throw other punches off it, he'd often miss it but follow through with a left hook or right, that doesn't make a good jab, but it is good technique to follow through, that doesn't make it a good jab. His jab is a weakness and 1 thats there to be exploited

Why do I say Toney's is better? Its faster than his other punches as a jab should be - that isn't genetic its technique. He recoils it faster as a jab should be so it can't be . He uses it to the body aswell as the head. He steps into the jab creating power beyond his physical assets, closing the gap and creating more range. Yes he under uses it, but he isn't really a jabber, he prefers to create traps and counter or lead with his right

Ring IQ is clearly a big weakness for Louis, his rematches after his trainers have drilled him on what he should do is proof of this, We know Louis was considered borderline re****ed, while there are different forms of intelligence it seems Louis just wasn't very bright, Dempsey's pre-Schmelling 2 comments back this up.
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Old 01-21-2011, 04:56 PM   #26
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Default Re: Who had better skills, Toney or Joe Louis?

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Originally Posted by Swarmer View Post
no, i stated that JL was great in rematches even without blackburn. also i find it funny that you're highlighting joe's inability to adapt in matches that he won...what about toney losing to guys like griffin, thadzi etc? If he was genuinely so skilled and complete in terms of ring iq he couldnt have lost to these guys in his physical prime right? oh wait
Its debatable he won some of those matches, allot had him losing Walcott 1, the first Goddoy fight was questionable and he was well down on the cards against a 167lb Conn, the Farr fight had some controversy

Again we are talking about raw skills here not overall ability, Toney was lazy especially post Jones but skill wise he was truly great
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Old 01-21-2011, 05:04 PM   #27
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Default Re: Who had better skills, Toney or Joe Louis?

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Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
Louis. Put very simply he's better at the things he does best than Toney is at the things he does best. Obviously it's a good deal more complex than that, but who wants to get into all that, really...
well I think Toney has an edge in upperbody movement and that is an important skillset
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Old 01-21-2011, 05:07 PM   #28
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Default Re: Who had better skills, Toney or Joe Louis?

How competitive would Louis be in this kind of shape

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Old 01-21-2011, 05:13 PM   #29
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Default Re: Who had better skills, Toney or Joe Louis?

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Originally Posted by PowerPuncher View Post
Ring IQ is clearly a big weakness for Louis, his rematches after his trainers have drilled him on what he should do is proof of this, We know Louis was considered borderline re****ed, while there are different forms of intelligence it seems Louis just wasn't very bright, Dempsey's pre-Schmelling 2 comments back this up.
There are times when the criticisms of Louis for strugling in winning efforts can seem a little crass. In Jmes Toneys case we are making excuses for outright losses instead of fights where he looked bad but found a way to win. Why wasn't he able to turn these fights round late if his ring IQ was so great?

Jack Blackburn died shortly after the second Abe Simon fight, so he obviouslu wasn't much help to Louis in the rematches with Conn and Walcott.

I think that you are underestimating Louis's IQ inside and outside of the ring here. He did have a bit of a one track mind and had trouble changing his fight plan, but lets not run away with this idea that he was a pupet on Blackburns hand who couldnt function without him.
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Old 01-21-2011, 05:14 PM   #30
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Default Re: Who had better skills, Toney or Joe Louis?

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How competitive would Louis be in this kind of shape

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Louis would have never let himself get into that shape.

It is all about ring IQ.
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