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Old 11-13-2007, 12:12 PM   #1
ChrisPontius
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Default Just did a Punch stat count on Foreman-Ali

I didn't count Foreman's "flicking", sticking his arms out/forward to intercept incoming punches (which, by the way, was completely ineffective against a straight puncher like Ali).
I did count short, light punches (often to the body) during clinches when one hand was free, though.

During the first five rounds, Foreman threw almost exclusively powershots. I didn't seperate them, but i'd be suprised if he threw more than 8 jabs a round. After round 5, he clearly tired and mixed a lot of arm punches / light punches to his arsenal.

Number of punches thrown by Foreman:

Round 1: 44
Round 2: 58
Round 3: 54
Round 4: 61
Round 5: 84*
Round 6: 48
Round 7: 46
Round 8: 67

Total number of punches is 462, which comes to an average of 59 punches a round (7.9 rounds).

*This round almost looked like a Foreman-heavybag exercise. After this round, Foreman really looked spent whereas Ali was fresh as a fish. During the rounds after this, most of Foreman's punches were light arm punches, no more than 15 of the 40-50 were full power shots with everything behind them. Interestingly, during the beginning of round 8, Foreman for a moment threw textbook jabs followed by a right hand when Ali layed on the ropes and to to great success; they landed.


I hadn't seen this fight in over a year and i have to say i was again suprised by the Ali cheerleader-ness of the commentator. When Foreman landed HUGE hooks to the liver and body, the commentator kept saying "those punches did not damage" on and on. Whenever Ali landed as much as a jab he was going wild "Ali lands a good left on Foreman's chin!". Even when
Ali was forced slow into a corner, he goes "Ali, dancing backward into a corner".



One more thing. Could this KO be more legit than it's made out to be?
There is no doubt that Foreman was tired. But, he did have a fairly high punch output right before he was knocked out. Ali hit him with about 8 punches that landed flush, beginning with one on the back of his head. If he could still get up, why didn't he? He had as good as zero chance of winning, but this is rarely mentioned against him. You hear all about
Tyson quitting mentally during hard fights etc, what about Foreman here? He certainly proved his heart (and chin) during his second career, but of course, Liston, Tyson, Duran etc also made it through tough fights on other ocassions during their carreers. I think this is an overlooked part of Foreman's career.
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Old 11-13-2007, 01:00 PM   #2
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Default Re: Just did a Punch stat count on Foreman-Ali

Quote:
One more thing. Could this KO be more legit than it's made out to be?
There is no doubt that Foreman was tired. But, he did have a fairly high punch output right before he was knocked out. Ali hit him with about 8 punches that landed flush, beginning with one on the back of his head. If he could still get up, why didn't he? He had as good as zero chance of winning, but this is rarely mentioned against him. You hear all about
Tyson quitting mentally during hard fights etc, what about Foreman here? He certainly proved his heart (and chin) during his second career, but of course, Liston, Tyson, Duran etc also made it through tough fights on other ocassions during their carreers. I think this is an overlooked part of Foreman's career.
[/quote]

The outcome of this match is one that has always been subject ot question. Some say it was heat exhaustion, others say that Foreman later claimed he was poisoned. A few people have even speculated that Foreman took a dive because was fearful of his life being on a continent where millions of people were saying " Ali kill him!", and figured that he'd get a rematch later in the States.

In any event, it was a rather mysterious outcome and one that I'm not sure we'll ever know the truth to.
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Old 11-13-2007, 01:19 PM   #3
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Default Re: Just did a Punch stat count on Foreman-Ali

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The outcome of this match is one that has always been subject ot question. Some say it was heat exhaustion, others say that Foreman later claimed he was poisoned. A few people have even speculated that Foreman took a dive because was fearful of his life being on a continent where millions of people were saying " Ali kill him!", and figured that he'd get a rematch later in the States.

In any event, it was a rather mysterious outcome and one that I'm not sure we'll ever know the truth to.
I don't see anything mysterious about it. Foreman was outclassed, and fought an incredibly stupid fight, he tired himself out and took several hard shots on the chin in sucession. Yep, not much of a mystery to me.
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Old 11-13-2007, 01:39 PM   #4
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Default Re: Just did a Punch stat count on Foreman-Ali

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Originally Posted by Maxmomer
I don't see anything mysterious about it. Foreman was outclassed, and fought an incredibly stupid fight, he tired himself out and took several hard shots on the chin in sucession. Yep, not much of a mystery to me.
I don't see anything mysterious about it either, but my point is that there have been numerous speculations made over the years in regards to this fight. Are any of them valid? My answer is, I don't know. One thing is for certain though, Ali never gave Goerge a rematch. Not that he was entitled to one after such a performance, but the more times I watch that bout, and the more I read or hear as the years go by, the stranger both the fight and the story get.
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Old 11-13-2007, 02:02 PM   #5
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Default Re: Just did a Punch stat count on Foreman-Ali

I would love to see a punch stat comparison against say... Gregorio Manuel Peralta I & II. I've never really thought about how many punches he actually threw in his fight with Ali as opposed to some of his other fights.
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Old 11-13-2007, 03:44 PM   #6
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Default Re: Just did a Punch stat count on Foreman-Ali

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxmomer
I don't see anything mysterious about it. Foreman was outclassed, and fought an incredibly stupid fight, he tired himself out and took several hard shots on the chin in sucession. Yep, not much of a mystery to me.
He got hit and he went down ,end of mystery!
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Old 11-13-2007, 06:27 PM   #7
ChrisPontius
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Default Re: Just did a Punch stat count on Foreman-Ali

mcvey, do you think it was a legit knockout or that Foreman elected not to get up?
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Old 11-13-2007, 06:29 PM   #8
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Default Re: Just did a Punch stat count on Foreman-Ali

First of all, excellent piece of research Chris!

What I found remarkable about Foreman's performance was that he was able to sustain his power for as long as he did, much longer than Shavers would have been likely to, IMHO. Secondly, Ali gave away the left side of his body to Foreman's right, and Big George took it. Ali's short ribs should have punctured his lung. It's fashionable to criticize how Foreman attacked Muhammad in hindsight. But who could have possibly predicted at the time that Ali would take all his hardest punches to the body without getting his ribs fractured, let alone have enough energy left at the end of seven rounds to score a knockout himself? His own strength should have been exhausted by the body beating he withstood.

In a first time matchup, Foreman did the only thing he could have been reasonably expected to do, given the situation. Only in a rematch could he have had the knowledge that he couldn't take out Ali the way he failed to do in Kinshasa. Like Arguello said after getting beaten by Pryor, "I hit him with good shots, and nothing happens!" There's just no way to account for the ridiculous surge of adrenaline some can get when they have mastered the art of psyching themselves up for a match. (What could be more nightmarish than to have all that power seemingly count for nothing? George must still have nightmares about it.)
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Old 11-13-2007, 06:46 PM   #9
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Default Re: Just did a Punch stat count on Foreman-Ali

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duodenum
Like Arguello said after getting beaten by Pryor, "I hit him with good shots, and nothing happens!"


The black bottle?
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Old 11-13-2007, 06:53 PM   #10
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Default Re: Just did a Punch stat count on Foreman-Ali

Nice work Chris.
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Old 11-13-2007, 06:56 PM   #11
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Default Re: Just did a Punch stat count on Foreman-Ali

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Originally Posted by ChrisPontius
mcvey, do you think it was a legit knockout or that Foreman elected not to get up?
Either way the answer lies in the number of times Foreman had been beyond ten rounds before this fight.
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Old 11-13-2007, 07:10 PM   #12
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Default Re: Just did a Punch stat count on Foreman-Ali

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Originally Posted by My dinner with Conteh
The black bottle?
Yeah, but not in the rematch.
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Old 11-13-2007, 08:59 PM   #13
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Default Re: Just did a Punch stat count on Foreman-Ali

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisPontius
I didn't count Foreman's "flicking", sticking his arms out/forward to intercept incoming punches (which, by the way, was completely ineffective against a straight puncher like Ali).
I did count short, light punches (often to the body) during clinches when one hand was free, though.

During the first five rounds, Foreman threw almost exclusively powershots. I didn't seperate them, but i'd be suprised if he threw more than 8 jabs a round. After round 5, he clearly tired and mixed a lot of arm punches / light punches to his arsenal.

Number of punches thrown by Foreman:

Round 1: 44
Round 2: 58
Round 3: 54
Round 4: 61
Round 5: 84*
Round 6: 48
Round 7: 46
Round 8: 67

Total number of punches is 462, which comes to an average of 59 punches a round (7.9 rounds).

*This round almost looked like a Foreman-heavybag exercise. After this round, Foreman really looked spent whereas Ali was fresh as a fish. During the rounds after this, most of Foreman's punches were light arm punches, no more than 15 of the 40-50 were full power shots with everything behind them. Interestingly, during the beginning of round 8, Foreman for a moment threw textbook jabs followed by a right hand when Ali layed on the ropes and to to great success; they landed.


I hadn't seen this fight in over a year and i have to say i was again suprised by the Ali cheerleader-ness of the commentator. When Foreman landed HUGE hooks to the liver and body, the commentator kept saying "those punches did not damage" on and on. Whenever Ali landed as much as a jab he was going wild "Ali lands a good left on Foreman's chin!". Even when
Ali was forced slow into a corner, he goes "Ali, dancing backward into a corner".



One more thing. Could this KO be more legit than it's made out to be?
There is no doubt that Foreman was tired. But, he did have a fairly high punch output right before he was knocked out. Ali hit him with about 8 punches that landed flush, beginning with one on the back of his head. If he could still get up, why didn't he? He had as good as zero chance of winning, but this is rarely mentioned against him. You hear all about
Tyson quitting mentally during hard fights etc, what about Foreman here? He certainly proved his heart (and chin) during his second career, but of course, Liston, Tyson, Duran etc also made it through tough fights on other ocassions during their carreers. I think this is an overlooked part of Foreman's career.
Almost every fight Ali was in had biased commentary toward him, especially the Thrilla in Manila
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Old 11-13-2007, 09:46 PM   #14
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Default Re: Just did a Punch stat count on Foreman-Ali

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisPontius
I didn't count Foreman's "flicking", sticking his arms out/forward to intercept incoming punches (which, by the way, was completely ineffective against a straight puncher like Ali).
I did count short, light punches (often to the body) during clinches when one hand was free, though.

During the first five rounds, Foreman threw almost exclusively powershots. I didn't seperate them, but i'd be suprised if he threw more than 8 jabs a round. After round 5, he clearly tired and mixed a lot of arm punches / light punches to his arsenal.

Number of punches thrown by Foreman:

Round 1: 44
Round 2: 58
Round 3: 54
Round 4: 61
Round 5: 84*
Round 6: 48
Round 7: 46
Round 8: 67

Total number of punches is 462, which comes to an average of 59 punches a round (7.9 rounds).

*This round almost looked like a Foreman-heavybag exercise. After this round, Foreman really looked spent whereas Ali was fresh as a fish. During the rounds after this, most of Foreman's punches were light arm punches, no more than 15 of the 40-50 were full power shots with everything behind them. Interestingly, during the beginning of round 8, Foreman for a moment threw textbook jabs followed by a right hand when Ali layed on the ropes and to to great success; they landed.


I hadn't seen this fight in over a year and i have to say i was again suprised by the Ali cheerleader-ness of the commentator. When Foreman landed HUGE hooks to the liver and body, the commentator kept saying "those punches did not damage" on and on. Whenever Ali landed as much as a jab he was going wild "Ali lands a good left on Foreman's chin!". Even when
Ali was forced slow into a corner, he goes "Ali, dancing backward into a corner".



One more thing. Could this KO be more legit than it's made out to be?
There is no doubt that Foreman was tired. But, he did have a fairly high punch output right before he was knocked out. Ali hit him with about 8 punches that landed flush, beginning with one on the back of his head. If he could still get up, why didn't he? He had as good as zero chance of winning, but this is rarely mentioned against him. You hear all about
Tyson quitting mentally during hard fights etc, what about Foreman here? He certainly proved his heart (and chin) during his second career, but of course, Liston, Tyson, Duran etc also made it through tough fights on other ocassions during their carreers. I think this is an overlooked part of Foreman's career.
Good observation. I think I called Foreman's heart into question before a little while ago during some mythical match up. I brought up this fight because when he got up- although tired, he made no effort to continue fighting or even protest the stoppage. He was definately clear headed but very dispirited. And its sad too because really the fight couldve gone either way.

Foreman's later image of being the good guy, plus his later redemptions seem to get him a pass. The Lyle fight, Holyfield fight and Moorer fight seem to resonate in the minds of posters when they talk about Foreman's heart. But the Ali fight, as important as it was, seems to be overlooked.

I've always maintained that what we do in the heat of the moment doesnt really define us especially in sports and more importantly boxing. Because boxing has redemption. Fighters are seldom appreaciated during thier time. Time usually affords us designer rose colored glasses.

BTW there is no mystery or conspiracy theory to it.
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Old 11-13-2007, 11:58 PM   #15
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Default Re: Just did a Punch stat count on Foreman-Ali

Quote:
I hadn't seen this fight in over a year and i have to say i was again suprised by the Ali cheerleader-ness of the commentator. When Foreman landed HUGE hooks to the liver and body, the commentator kept saying "those punches did not damage" on and on. Whenever Ali landed as much as a jab he was going wild "Ali lands a good left on Foreman's chin!". Even when
Ali was forced slow into a corner, he goes "Ali, dancing backward into a corner".
And did you hear that British announcer after the fight? "ALI HAS WON!!! THE GREAT MAN HAS DONE IT! IS THIS THE GREATEST MAN ON EARTH??? THIS IS THE MOST JOYOUS SCENE IN THE HISTORY OF BOXING!!!!" Wonder what the guy would've said if Foreman had won? "Oh, the evil man has triumphed! What a dark day for our most noble of sports!"

Quote:
You hear all about
Tyson quitting mentally during hard fights etc, what about Foreman here? He certainly proved his heart (and chin) during his second career, but of course, Liston, Tyson, Duran etc also made it through tough fights on other ocassions during their carreers. I think this is an overlooked part of Foreman's career.
You could say Foreman sort of mentally quit at the end of that fight, but he fought his heart out and was very legitimately dropped by a series of strong punches while utterly exhausted, and when he got up, just before 10, the ref was waving the fight off, so I don't really see your complaint. This is nothing like sitting down on your stool and quitting.
And it's not Foreman's second career, but the Lyle fight that most conclusively proves he had the heart of a champion to me. This is a major reason I hold him in higher esteem than the likes of Tyson and Liston.
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