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Old 01-25-2011, 10:47 AM   #1
Il Duce
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Default IF (Sonny Liston beat Muhammad Ali II)

It could have never happened.

Only '2' Boxing Commissions in the United States would give Sonny Liston a license,,,,,, Maine and Alaska.

No other state would sanction a bout. And every other country that had a Boxing Federation would not give Sonny Liston a license.
The only possibility, would have been Sweden, with the help of Ingemar
Johansson.

If Sonny had won (and that was never going to happen), the only fight that had the slightest chance to be made, was versus George Chuvalo
in Portland, Maine in late-1965, or as a back-up, Anchorage, Alaska.

It is possible, that maybe, Toronto, Canada would have sanctioned
a Sonny Liston bout, if he agreed to fight George Chuvalo in Toronto.

In truth, Sonny Liston was done, as he was unmarketable as a
Heavyweight Champion.
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Old 01-25-2011, 11:26 AM   #2
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Default Re: IF (Sonny Liston beat Muhammad Ali II)

No matter what anybody said, Las Vegas wanted the next bout, and in
the late-Fall.

The problem, The Nevada State Boxing Commission would not sanction a
Sonny Liston bout.

Do you see where this is going,,,,,,,,,,,

The Las Vegas Hotel & Casino owners were pulling the strings, behind the curtains.
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Old 01-25-2011, 03:15 PM   #3
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Default Re: IF (Sonny Liston beat Muhammad Ali II)

Tito,,,,,,,

Money,,,,,

A Liston vs. Chuvalo fight does,,,,,,,,,, $400,000........Tops.

Ali vs. Patterson in Las Vegas did,,,,,,,,,,$4,500,000,,,what was reported.
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Old 01-25-2011, 07:37 PM   #4
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Default Re: IF (Sonny Liston beat Muhammad Ali II)

Wouldn't Maple Leaf Gardens, Toronto be the best place for a Liston-Chuvalo fight ?

(That's where Terrell and Ali ended up in 1965/'66 fighting George)
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Old 01-25-2011, 07:42 PM   #5
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Default Re: IF (Sonny Liston beat Muhammad Ali II)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Il Duce View Post

The Las Vegas Hotel & Casino owners were pulling the strings, behind the curtains.
Yeah.

These types of guys :

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
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Old 01-25-2011, 08:01 PM   #6
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Default Re: IF (Sonny Liston beat Muhammad Ali II)

Speaking of chuvalo it shows both Liston clay bouts were fixes by how many times a b level fight could hit clay in their 66 bout.
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Old 01-25-2011, 08:07 PM   #7
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Default Re: IF (Sonny Liston beat Muhammad Ali II)

Quote:
Originally Posted by alexvoce View Post
Speaking of chuvalo it shows both Liston clay bouts were fixes by how many times a b level fight could hit clay in their 66 bout.
I don't know if that proves the Liston fights were fixes, but it's remarkable how many people will tell you Ali was virtually "untouchable" in his 1966-'67 defenses.
Actually, he got hit enough by Chuvalo, Cooper and Mildenberger. They close down distance on him quite a bit too. His abilities to dance for 15 rounds and stay off the ropes and never get hit are greatly exaggerated.
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Old 01-25-2011, 08:26 PM   #8
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Default Re: IF (Sonny Liston beat Muhammad Ali II)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unforgiven View Post
I don't know if that proves the Liston fights were fixes, but it's remarkable how many people will tell you Ali was virtually "untouchable" in his 1966-'67 defenses.
Actually, he got hit enough by Chuvalo, Cooper and Mildenberger. They close down distance on him quite a bit too. His abilities to dance for 15 rounds and stay off the ropes and never get hit are greatly exaggerated.
This is true, i still rate Peak Ali ('65 Patterson to '67 Folley) as #1 H2H, however it's ridiculous when people claim nonsense such as:
"Peak Frazier wouldn't be able to catch him."
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Old 01-25-2011, 11:22 PM   #9
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Default Re: IF (Sonny Liston beat Muhammad Ali II)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unforgiven View Post
Wouldn't Maple Leaf Gardens, Toronto be the best place for a Liston-Chuvalo fight ?

(That's where Terrell and Ali ended up in 1965/'66 fighting George)
In actuality, Sam Michael the local promoter for the Lewiston, Maine fight
was guaranteed (so what) by I-C-P to get the Liston Vs. Chuvalo fight
if it happened.

Though a Toronto fight sounds good, Sonny Liston was not licensed in
the Ontario Province, and or the Toronto Boxing Commission would not sanction a bout with Liston
involved.

I-C-P (and Sonny Liston) made more money promoting the Ali vs. Patterson fight.

A Liston vs. Chuvalo fight would lose money for the promoters, not enough money to be made on
this bout.

I think the Ali vs. Chuvalo fight only pulled in $260,000 Gross, and Main Bouts, Inc, lost about $150,000 on
the promotion.
Muhammad Ali's fight purse was only $60,000.

No way Sonny Liston would have fought George Chuvalo for a mere $60,000.

Last edited by Il Duce; 01-25-2011 at 11:34 PM.
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Old 01-26-2011, 06:43 AM   #10
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Default Re: IF (Sonny Liston beat Muhammad Ali II)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalasinn View Post
This is true, i still rate Peak Ali ('65 Patterson to '67 Folley) as #1 H2H, however it's ridiculous when people claim nonsense such as:
"Peak Frazier wouldn't be able to catch him."
I still pick 86-88 Tyson and a peak Frazier to take that version of Ali I feel the younger Ali was easier to knock down than in his later years and especially with Tysons finishing he would have done the job.
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Old 01-26-2011, 12:11 PM   #11
Il Duce
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Default Re: IF (Sonny Liston beat Muhammad Ali II)

T-N-T,

The 'live gate' for the Ali vs. Chuvalo fight was $150,000.

Attendance was 13,540 in Toronto, at the Maple Leafs Garden.

The fight was a 'flop' at the closed circuit theatre buys.
Most of the theatres would not carry the fight, as it was a 'no interest event'.

Last edited by Il Duce; 01-26-2011 at 12:24 PM.
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Old 02-23-2011, 08:44 AM   #12
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Default Re: IF (Sonny Liston beat Muhammad Ali II)

John,

It could never happen,,,,,,not with the behind the scene dealings, but,,,,,,

If, lets say it was a legitimate win,,,

George Chuvalo would have been the logical choice, $ wise.
Nothing else worth any decent money on the horizon.
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