Has the science of slugging changed?

[Swarmer]

Well as you all know we have constant debates on Classic here about the idea of progression in boxing skill throughout the history of the gloved era. I notice that in these discussions we try and highlight differences in fighters of three basic styles: boxers, boxer-punchers, and swarmers... The slugger or brawler is conspicuously absent. I initially thought that this was due to the perceptions of the "lack of skill" that this style is characterized by. And then it got me to thinking whether that was a fair evaluation of these fighters, and whether they are relevant to the ongoing discussion of the changing game of gloved boxing...

So I ask you Classic forum, has the slugging game changed? Are different tactics or skills more important to these fighters now than they used to be? Is this style one that is innately learned or can it be passed down from fighter to fighter(like Blackburn taught Louis, or the Mayweathers taught Floyd Jr.). What do you think?









Any "evolution" in this aspect of the game?

[zadfrak]

I certainly think so.

The main reason is legs. You just don't see any good legs these days and the emphasis is on the plant your feet to do anything style. I do not think there are very many good trainers out there anymore and everything seems to be from the waist up. Very very little work done especially with brawlers/sluggers to put their feet in the optimal position before launching. Or better yet, throw effective punches while moving their feet. It can be done and used to be done all the time.

Even the boxers and their footwork has deteriorated and the only thing they seem to be capable of doing is moving and throwing a flicking style jab only. And no good left hook off the jab while moving those feet either. No follow up, just the flick. And the opponents still don't have the tools to deal with it.

Planting feet means less mobility and I think far less conditioning as well. That's a lot of movement and cardio to move the bottom half as well as the top half for 36 minutes. Imagine 45.. We are fortunate to see a guy with top shelf upper body movement only.

It takes a lot of work to develop good legs and keep them. A lot of polishing to pull it off and to keep it. In my opinion, you had to have good legs years ago to compete at the top level. It was as important as a chin and a defense. No longer though & mediocre footwork is successful in the present day.

[mister]

the science of slugging has changed dramatically a fighter from the old days would look out of place in the ring today it would be the same as looking at the first airplane ever made and comparing it with the stealth

[Vic-JofreBRASIL]

Well, one important detail :
with the referees in the professional game today, it´s more difficult for sluggers (it´s same for swarmers too)......Imagine Ketchel or Saddler with Joe Cortez as a refferee, that "rough fight" simply wouldn´t work so well, I think.....

[lefthook31]

I think sluggers in the past fought more out of a crouch and didnt utilize as much head and upper body movement. Compare Marciano to Frazier for example.

[Swarmer]

Originally Posted by lefthook31

I think sluggers in the past fought more out of a crouch and didnt utilize as much head and upper body movement. Compare Marciano to Frazier for example.

Frazier was a swarmer, not a slugger....And i tend to think of Marciano as the same(but with slugger qualities). And even if you were using that as an example for swarmers one could easily provide fighters like Dempsey, McGovern, etc as counter-examples. I think most sluggers of the past didn't fight out of a crouch, crouching doesn't really help the slugger's sweet spot of middle range and that's remained constant imo.

Originally Posted by Vic-JofreBRASIL

Well, one important detail :
with the referees in the professional game today, it´s more difficult for sluggers (it´s same for swarmers too)......Imagine Ketchel or Saddler with Joe Cortez as a refferee, that "rough fight" simply wouldn´t work so well, I think.....

Yep, the new interpretations of the rules have caused the death of infighting skill and tactics. While it affects swarmers much more(and you really don't see many of them today), it definitely makes it more difficult for a slugger to create openings for those big bombs. I think the modern slugging game possibly relies a lot more on chance as a result, and incorporates a bit more outboxing(think of Liston and Foreman with their jabs).


Zadfrak, I think sluggers may have been least affected by the feet planting issue you're referring to. I feel as if most sluggers don't really have good efficient traditional power punching mechanics ala Arguello per se; in most of the best sluggers there is a component of awkwardness and unorthodoxy...as well as an emphasis on swinging for the fence with your whole body that is less of a taught skill than an inborn talent.

[Seamus]

Originally Posted by Vic-JofreBRASIL

Well, one important detail :
with the referees in the professional game today, it´s more difficult for sluggers (it´s same for swarmers too)......Imagine Ketchel or Saddler with Joe Cortez as a refferee, that "rough fight" simply wouldn´t work so well, I think.....

Absolutely. His job in the Mayweather-Hatton fight was atrocious and completely negated Hatton's style.

[Swarmer]

Originally Posted by Seamus

Absolutely. His job in the Mayweather-Hatton fight was atrocious and completely negated Hatton's style.

He is a terrible ref, he fucked over Maidana recently too by not letting him infight at all against Khan.

[lefthook31]

Swarmer and slugger are the same to me. Dempsey still didn't have the upper body movement of a Frazier or Tyson.

[janitor]

Originally Posted by lefthook31

Swarmer and slugger are the same to me. Dempsey still didn't have the upper body movement of a Frazier or Tyson.

He did and better!

Either way, Dempsey has never sat comfortably in the swarmer category for me.

I think that the pure swarmer, in the mould of Joe Frazier is probably the boxing style that has changed the least since the dawn of gloved boxing.

If I took Ricky Hatton back to 1900 and filmed him in black and white, would anybody see anything that looked out of place?

[janitor]

Originally Posted by Seamus

Absolutely. His job in the Mayweather-Hatton fight was atrocious and completely negated Hatton's style.

There have always been reffs like that.

Sam Lamgfords first loss to Sam McVea was largley a product of the reff not alowing him to infight.

[Swarmer]

Originally Posted by lefthook31

Swarmer and slugger are the same to me. Dempsey still didn't have the upper body movement of a Frazier or Tyson.

How are they the same? Both styles are offensive and favor harder hitting fighters but there's a clear difference between the two styles.... You can't say Henry Armstrong and George Foreman are the same kind of fighter.

There are plenty of hybrids of the two, Dempsey, Tyson, and Marciano being some good examples. But at the lower weight classes, the difference between the two styles becomes very clear.

Originally Posted by janitor

I think that the pure swarmer, in the mould of Joe Frazier is probably the boxing style that has changed the least since the dawn of gloved boxing.

If I took Ricky Hatton back to 1900 and filmed him in black and white, would anybody see anything that looked out of place?

I think the definition of the swarming game has kinda become a little looser, we dont see many pure swarmers today.....I think the term "volume puncher" is being used a lot to describe some of the type of fighter i'm talking about. Guys like Pryor, Pacquiao, JCC etc are what i'm referring to. Boxer-puncher/swarmer hybrids...

[lefthook31]

Weve had this discussion before in another thread. I usually classify fighters the following way.

boxer (purely outside technician)
boxer/puncher (outside inside a mix of both styles)
brawler (same as slugger swarmer all offense at close quarters)

However you want to break it down theyre fighters that are all offense full steam ahead. I think the approach has changed a bit over the years because of how much the fighter is in harms way.

[GPater11093]

Originally Posted by zadfrak

I certainly think so.

The main reason is legs. You just don't see any good legs these days and the emphasis is on the plant your feet to do anything style. I do not think there are very many good trainers out there anymore and everything seems to be from the waist up. Very very little work done especially with brawlers/sluggers to put their feet in the optimal position before launching. Or better yet, throw effective punches while moving their feet. It can be done and used to be done all the time.

Even the boxers and their footwork has deteriorated and the only thing they seem to be capable of doing is moving and throwing a flicking style jab only. And no good left hook off the jab while moving those feet either. No follow up, just the flick. And the opponents still don't have the tools to deal with it.

Planting feet means less mobility and I think far less conditioning as well. That's a lot of movement and cardio to move the bottom half as well as the top half for 36 minutes. Imagine 45.. We are fortunate to see a guy with top shelf upper body movement only.

It takes a lot of work to develop good legs and keep them. A lot of polishing to pull it off and to keep it. In my opinion, you had to have good legs years ago to compete at the top level. It was as important as a chin and a defense. No longer though & mediocre footwork is successful in the present day.

I agree to an extent here. But my biggest issue I think is fighters now a days IMO tend to move around a lot more. You look at a guy like Amir Khan who uses lots of lateral movement, same could be said for Devon Alexander, Andre Dirrell, Nonito Donaire etc....

These guys use a lot of energy in their feet movements, probably moreso than in the past as they have only 12 rounds compared to 15 so can be less conservative with their energy. Do you see any guys in the '50's say, who used that much lateral movement all the time?

Sure, Ray Robinson moved around but that was only occasionally he was at his best with his feet planted and a more aggressive stance IMO. Same with Ray Leonard or Kid Gavilan.

The first real guy that could be a 'lateral mover for the 21st century; is Chuck Davey and he never did that well in his era. I think he is more comparable to Khan, say, than Robinson to Khan.

But I agree footwork is a very important trait to have in a top fighter. But it should be noted that almost every top class fighter has really good footwork, Floyd Mayweather, Manny Pacquiao, Timothy Bradley, Ivan Calderon, Bernard Hopkins etc....

I'm not that much of a fan of the more aggression orientated fighters. But I don't think the actual 'science of slugging' has changed just that the quality of fighters exercising the laws of it, have decreased, as is the case of every style.

But current pound for pound number one Manny Pacquiao could be classed a slugger and he isn't too shabby is he?

[Swarmer]

Originally Posted by lefthook31

Weve had this discussion before in another thread. I usually classify fighters the following way.

boxer (purely outside technician)
boxer/puncher (outside inside a mix of both styles)
brawler (same as slugger swarmer all offense at close quarters)
.

You and I? Sometimes Classic repeats itself

That;s kind of hard for me to use as a system. Plenty of pure boxers are skilled on the inside(mayweather, hopkins, etc.) for example. And most sluggers don't operate at close range but middle range, where they can get the most out of their knockout punches. Sluggers can't swing for the fences without some space, and swarmers aren't always trying to swing for the fence. There are fighters that fit both categories no doubt, but enough of a difference for me to see clearly.

Originally Posted by GPater11093

I agree to an extent here. But my biggest issue I think is fighters now a days IMO tend to move around a lot more. You look at a guy like Amir Khan who uses lots of lateral movement, same could be said for Devon Alexander, Andre Dirrell, Nonito Donaire etc....

But current pound for pound number one Manny Pacquiao could be classed a slugger and he isn't too shabby is he?

That's Ali's influence right there. But fast feet and lots of movement doesn't good footwork make. Actually i'm glad you brought up Andre Dirrell. He moves fast but not smart. He's always slipping and doesn't effectively punch or enforce his range as a result, and fights in spurts. That high energy movement isn't the right choice for everyone and fighters today seem to work toward that as a goal with middling results.

I don't think of Pac as a slugger anymore. In the old days maybe but he's really more of a Boxer-puncher/swarmer hybrid in his current incarnation, he's upped his punch variety and he doesn't blast for the knockout much anymore.