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Old 02-08-2011, 10:18 PM   #61
techks
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Default Re: Ali overrated says Larry Holmes

TBH, Ali is only overrated by people who don't know a lot about boxing. Robinson and Armstrong rate over Ali by knowledgeable boxing fans. Ali may be the GOAT @ heavyweight if Louis isn't.
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Old 02-09-2011, 12:26 AM   #62
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Default Re: Ali overrated says Larry Holmes

well i mean...Frazier did hit harder then ali.....thats kind of just a fact....
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Old 02-09-2011, 12:29 AM   #63
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Default Re: Ali overrated says Larry Holmes

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Originally Posted by techks View Post
TBH, Ali is only overrated by people who don't know a lot about boxing. Robinson and Armstrong rate over Ali by knowledgeable boxing fans. Ali may be the GOAT @ heavyweight if Louis isn't.
the only thing i will say is ali did some things wrong that left him opened...now he had a great heart and great chin..which still made him a hell of a fighter even after his reflexes had eroded (something someone like Roy Jones could not manage once his reflexes left his fundlemental flaws exposed) still i do think its some what fair to say ali got the benefit of some judges through the 1970's..and some of his fighters where less then great through that time.
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Old 02-09-2011, 01:40 AM   #64
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Default Re: Ali overrated says Larry Holmes

Dont think there was any Heavyweight that hit harder than Foreman,he was a fair dinkum Monster,he disposed of Frazier in less than 2 rounds,tried his best to do the same to Ali but Ali was just to smart and fast for him.!!!
Have a look at this Brute of a Man.!!!
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yn6KIwnQd2c[/ame]
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Old 02-09-2011, 04:38 AM   #65
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Default Re: Ali overrated says Larry Holmes

I've just mentioned on another thread,that if Muhammad Ali is overated with names like Liston,Frazier,Foreman and Norton on his c.v. then how every other heavyweight champion must be MORE overated. The Foreman fight,in particular, comes to mind. In 1974,no other heavy around could have beaten George. Some may mention Jimmy Young,but there's no way that Jimmy would have been ready at that point in time.
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Old 02-09-2011, 04:40 AM   #66
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Default Re: Ali overrated says Larry Holmes

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He wasn't overrated as an ATG. No way. Perhaps Larry was talking about Ali wasn't a complete fighter and was overrated regarding his inability to fight inside and seldom punching downstairs?
Good point. But no fighter is the COMPLETE package. All the great ones had their strengths and weaknesses.
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Old 02-09-2011, 07:57 AM   #67
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Default Re: Ali overrated says Larry Holmes

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I was watching "Thrilla in Manila" doco last night and Larry Holmes said that Ali was overrated as a fighter and that he punched like a butterfly while it was Frazier who hit like a bee. Your thoughts?
Larry is one of my favorite heavyweight fighters, but he's always had a chip on his shoulder. Nearly anything he says is quite bitter and or vitriolic. With that in mind it's hard to take him seriously. He's also an "underappreciated champ" with that sentiment he seems to line himself up with one of the other underappreciated men in Frazier.
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Old 02-09-2011, 08:06 AM   #68
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Default Re: Ali overrated says Larry Holmes

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the only thing i will say is ali did some things wrong that left him opened...now he had a great heart and great chin..which still made him a hell of a fighter even after his reflexes had eroded (something someone like Roy Jones could not manage once his reflexes left his fundlemental flaws exposed) still i do think its some what fair to say ali got the benefit of some judges through the 1970's..and some of his fighters where less then great through that time.
I think this is a very overstated argument. I don't think anyone can claim with real conviction that Ali got one gift decision before 1976, and by then his legacy was secured.

Hardly anyone rates Ali on what he did after Manilla, so whatever one thinks of his wins over Young and Norton (rubber match) it isn't very relevant for how great he's perceived to be.
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Old 02-09-2011, 08:34 AM   #69
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Default Re: Ali overrated says Larry Holmes

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Good point. But no fighter is the COMPLETE package. All the great ones had their strengths and weaknesses.
Absolutely...no such thing as the perfect fighter.

Just some pretty damn close to it
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Old 02-09-2011, 09:01 AM   #70
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Default Re: Ali overrated says Larry Holmes

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Originally Posted by fistsof steel View Post
Dont think there was any Heavyweight that hit harder than Foreman,he was a fair dinkum Monster,he disposed of Frazier in less than 2 rounds,tried his best to do the same to Ali but Ali was just to smart and fast for him.!!!
Have a look at this Brute of a Man.!!!
[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
Frazier was better prepared for his second bout with Ali than he had been for George in Kingston, yet Muhammad also nearly dropped Joe on his face, stumbling forward to regain his footing, before round two was up. Granted, Muhammad didn't share Foreman's power, but that was still a beaut of a right hand he clipped across Smoke's jaw at 9:21:

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]


The right-left-right that Ali unloads out of his own corner to stagger Foreman with 17 seconds into round four (at :36 on the following youtube clip) is not some aberration which can be dismissed to fatigue on George's part. It's a flash of the same early round power Muhammad sent Frazier defensively retreating clear across the ring into a neutral corner to ride out the storm before Perez's auditory hallucination induced intervention granted him a premature reprieve.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsdM0MbyGHY[/ame]



He also buckled and wobbled Liston back to a neutral corner from ring center 20 seconds into the third round of their Miami Beach scuffle with a right hand comparable to the one he floored Sonny with in Lewiston the next year, and Frazier a decade later. (3:50 on the following clip.) When his hands were well enough to load up early, and he chose to put the full force in, he was perfectly capable of hurting tough and durable ATG heavyweights during his prime.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lp0RdiW8-bQ[/ame]


None of these three displays of early round power can be casually dismissed to the recipient either being caught cold out of the gate at the opening bell, or due to fatigue. They are all valid displays of legitimate force against prime or near prime ATG heavyweights known for their toughness and durability, and in a critical situation for the man delivering the punishment.
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Old 02-09-2011, 09:59 AM   #71
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Default Re: Ali overrated says Larry Holmes

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Originally Posted by Johnstown View Post
the only thing i will say is ali did some things wrong that left him opened...now he had a great heart and great chin..which still made him a hell of a fighter even after his reflexes had eroded (something someone like Roy Jones could not manage once his reflexes left his fundlemental flaws exposed) still i do think its some what fair to say ali got the benefit of some judges through the 1970's..and some of his fighters where less then great through that time.
Yeah I thought Young & Norton got robbed in the late 70's. Ali was great but I do think he got some unfair benefits from time to time such as the non-existant ref in the Foreman & Frazier 2 fights. He was dirty in both affairs and didn't even get a slap on the wrist
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Old 02-09-2011, 10:34 AM   #72
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Default Re: Ali overrated says Larry Holmes

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I've just mentioned on another thread,that if Muhammad Ali is overated with names like Liston,Frazier,Foreman and Norton on his c.v. then how every other heavyweight champion must be MORE overated. The Foreman fight,in particular, comes to mind. In 1974,no other heavy around could have beaten George. Some may mention Jimmy Young,but there's no way that Jimmy would have been ready at that point in time.
And more to the point,how many linear champions prior to,and since this timeline would anyone have made favourite to beat the Zaire Foreman,apart from Ali ? Larry Holmes comes to mind,but I mention even HIS name with caution. Joe Louis,Sonny Liston and Lennox Lewis would be 50/50 bouts,imo.
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Old 02-09-2011, 10:52 AM   #73
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Default Re: Ali overrated says Larry Holmes

ali was so good and a step ahead of everyone from his era he had good power but he enjoyed boxing and a lot of times i think he prolonged a fight to give the fans their moneys worth if ali meet holmes in their primes ali would kayo holmes
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Old 02-09-2011, 11:48 AM   #74
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Default Re: Ali overrated says Larry Holmes

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the prime Larry Holmes was no worse a fighter than Norton or Foreman or Frazier. He was that good. I give him a chance with Holmes. Larry had a great jab and there is a chance Ali would have to stand and fight Larry. Moving around on Larry might not work. Larry's jab might have neutralized that movement like Hearns jab neutralized Ray Leonard.
I would put larry in front of all 3
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Old 02-09-2011, 12:02 PM   #75
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Default Re: Ali overrated says Larry Holmes

I'll play Devil's advocate:

Future generations may look back on us, Ali's generation, and promptly flunk us.

Muhammad Ali, the greatest heavyweight ever, just because he proclaimed it ad nauseam to the high heavens?

Look at the guy:

Skinny, jumping around throwing flashy, powderpuff stuff as a young man and flicking harmless jabs, clinching, grabbing the back of the head and lying on the ropes as an old man to the breathless acclaim of his generation? Romantic fools.

There are such things as collective hypnosis and Chicago Cubs fans filling the sunny confines of Wrigley Field and emoting over the home team's foul balls, tobacco spits and other mighty exploits.

Sure, Ali knocked a lot of people out, but he was almost always the bigger man in his fights. He beat up little, ancient Archie Moore. Big deal. His stuff would be nothing against a David Tua, or Ike Ibeabuchi, or Vitali Klitschko, or other future behemoth.

Had Ali fought decades later, he might have been just another Chris Byrd or David Haye: pretty good, but, in the end, a footnote, universally unsung, unknown, unheralded.

Ali was just lucky to be bigger, faster, more athletic than his old-time peers.

He was strictly a headhunter and often a slapper! Can this be the greatest heavyweight ever?

Liston? Inconclusive. For whatever reasons, Liston quit both times and was never, ever, truly hurt by his floating foe.

Frazier? A little man who was never floored over 41 rounds by the Butterfly.

Foreman? Subpar in the African climate. Fought real foolish and totally punched himself out. The opportunistic Ali scored a quick-count knockout over a guy who would later be floored by the likes of Jimmy Young.

And, Cleveland Williams? Ali, at the zenith peak of his fabled powers, couldn't keep his bullet-wounded victim down. And the Cat ended the fight on his feet, scowling at the stoppage.

Larry Holmes was a more complete fighter: true power in both hands; a more complete repertoire than just a one-two; a faster, stronger jab; more economical and correct ring movement than jumping all over the place; though a much older champion, more title defenses than the Butterfly; clearly defeated Ken Norton, a man Ali never truly beat.

Perhaps Holmes is on to something?
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