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Old 02-09-2011, 08:22 PM   #1
goat15
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Default what does 'pound for pound' mean for you?

what does this expression mean for you? for me, it seems to encompass two ideas (examples are historical, not actual questions!):

1) comparing boxers based on skill/accomplishment etc. as distinct from their relative weights e.g. was robinson greater (skill/dominance) at welterweight than louis was at heavyweight?

2) comparing boxers based on their ability to perform above and below their natural weight e.g. did bob fitzsimmons prove he was the greatest of his era, by carrying his skills through the weight classes?

when people compile their pound for pound lists (especially regarding all-time greats), it seems that the recent trend is to emphasise the second achievement over the first.

surely both factors are important, though... which brings me to my question - what's more important to you when assessing the greats, dominating a weight class, or weight jumping?

of course those who did both e.g. greb, robinson, charles, duran etc. tend to trump those who did one or the other. but the difficulty comes when comparing say, a hagler and a pacquiao. how do you go about doing this, in general?

Last edited by goat15; 02-09-2011 at 08:46 PM.
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Old 02-09-2011, 09:14 PM   #2
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Default Re: what does 'pound for pound' mean for you?

what it should be mean is simple- 'regardless of weight', that's all it means. People seem to wrongfully discredit heavyweights when it comes to this. All it means is who is the better fighter if all things are equal in terms of size, i.e there is no weight advantage. Obviously Joe Frazier beats Jung Koo Chang to death in an actual fight, but to compare them pound for pound is to compare them regardless of weight, who is the better fighter? Some people seem to automatically go against the heavyweight in such a discussion, but the likes of Ali etc are some of the best fighters to ever do it pound for pound.

Then there is pound for pound all time rankings, which is simply a list of the greatest (usually incorporates resume) fighters of all time regardless of division. With such compilations there is generally a consideration of fighters who were able to defeat larger opponents, and rightfully so, although this maybe shouldn't be the overriding factor consistently. It's subjective when doing lists, especially pound for pound lists, and all things should be considered.

Anyway, my breakdown is good, no?
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Old 02-09-2011, 09:40 PM   #3
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Default Re: what does 'pound for pound' mean for you?

agreed totally. it does mean who is the best fighter 'regardless of weight'. it just seems that too often success in different weight classes is seen as the best kind of evidence of being the best regardless of weight, when really, it's only one type of achievement.

dominating a division is equally (in my opinion) good evidence of a fighter's ability.

ideally, a fighter would clean out his own division, and then move up to seek new challenges. for me, moving up in weight when there is unfinished business at your natural weight, is a strange path to take. when it's repeated, it starts to seem more and more opportunistic.

and your mentioning people's disregard for heavyweights highlights this tension perfectly. clearly, weight jumping is valued more than dominating a division. if dominating a division were seen as equally good evidence of a fighter's ability, then heavyweights wouldn't be marked down.
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Old 02-09-2011, 09:49 PM   #4
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Default Re: what does 'pound for pound' mean for you?

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Originally Posted by teeto View Post
what it should be mean is simple- 'regardless of weight', that's all it means. People seem to wrongfully discredit heavyweights when it comes to this. All it means is who is the better fighter if all things are equal in terms of size, i.e there is no weight advantage. Obviously Joe Frazier beats Jung Koo Chang to death in an actual fight, but to compare them pound for pound is to compare them regardless of weight, who is the better fighter? Some people seem to automatically go against the heavyweight in such a discussion, but the likes of Ali etc are some of the best fighters to ever do it pound for pound.

Then there is pound for pound all time rankings, which is simply a list of the greatest (usually incorporates resume) fighters of all time regardless of division. With such compilations there is generally a consideration of fighters who were able to defeat larger opponents, and rightfully so, although this maybe shouldn't be the overriding factor consistently. It's subjective when doing lists, especially pound for pound lists, and all things should be considered.

Anyway, my breakdown is good, no?
And it's so, so silly when they do.
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Old 02-09-2011, 09:56 PM   #5
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Default Re: what does 'pound for pound' mean for you?

*I disagree... it's not pitting fighter against fighter,ia fantacy same weight fight... i hear that all the time and it's rediculous.
*It's how dominant a fighter is over is opponent and div.. how versatile a fighter can be in fighting different opponents... and the strength of the fighters he's beaten... for instance, Arthur Abraham is pretty much one dimensional and had a virtually weak opponent record...vs ,lets say Pacquiao, who's fought bigger boxers, sluggers and cleaned out different div's...
*To say..everything being equal... Pac vs Vitali... then u would have a 250 pound super fast powerful Pacquiao who can take everyone's punches...
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Old 02-09-2011, 10:02 PM   #6
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Default Re: what does 'pound for pound' mean for you?

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*I disagree... it's not pitting fighter against fighter,ia fantacy same weight fight... i hear that all the time and it's rediculous.
*It's how dominant a fighter is over is opponent and div.. how versatile a fighter can be in fighting different opponents... and the strength of the fighters he's beaten... for instance, Arthur Abraham is pretty much one dimensional and had a virtually weak opponent record...vs ,lets say Pacquiao, who's fought bigger boxers, sluggers and cleaned out different div's...
*To say..everything being equal... Pac vs Vitali... then u would have a 250 pound super fast powerful Pacquiao who can take everyone's punches...

it's not about 'who would win' regardless of weight. it's about 'whose achievements are better' regardless of weight.

the comparison is between dominance of a division (taking into account the things you've mentioned, different styles faced, how emphatic the victories are etc.) and weight jumping prowess.

head to head fantasy fights have nothing to do with this. all to do with accomplishments.
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Old 02-09-2011, 10:20 PM   #7
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Default Re: what does 'pound for pound' mean for you?

Best of the Best
Creme de la Creme

Pound for Pound sounds like some meat you get at a Deli Counter.

Generally speaking a bad term.
Can you compare Jim Brown (Running Back) to Jerry Rice (Wide Receiver)
No, different positions, just like different divisions in weight.

I believe they should just be rated on their overall talent, not by weight.
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Old 02-09-2011, 10:47 PM   #8
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Default Re: what does 'pound for pound' mean for you?

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Best of the Best
Creme de la Creme

Pound for Pound sounds like some meat you get at a Deli Counter.

Generally speaking a bad term.
Can you compare Jim Brown (Running Back) to Jerry Rice (Wide Receiver)
No, different positions, just like different divisions in weight.

I believe they should just be rated on their overall talent, not by weight.
so do you choose hagler's middleweight dominance or pacquiao's weight climbing?

what about rocky marciano's 49-0 versus heavyweights when compared to tony canzoneri's 126>135>140?

do you see what i'm getting at?
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Old 02-09-2011, 11:24 PM   #9
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Default Re: what does 'pound for pound' mean for you?

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Originally Posted by goat15 View Post
so do you choose hagler's middleweight dominance or pacquiao's weight climbing?

what about rocky marciano's 49-0 versus heavyweights when compared to tony canzoneri's 126>135>140?

do you see what i'm getting at?
Having nothing to do with weight jumping vs dominating a division, I have Pacquiao and Canzoneri both comfortably over Hagler, who is comfortably over Marciano. On my list, anyway.
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Old 02-09-2011, 11:38 PM   #10
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Default Re: what does 'pound for pound' mean for you?

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Having nothing to do with weight jumping vs dominating a division, I have Pacquiao and Canzoneri both comfortably over Hagler, who is comfortably over Marciano. On my list, anyway.
ok, although i don't agree entirely, with hindsight the examples could have been tighter.

benny leonard or manny pacquiao? joe gans or ray leonard?

on another note, i was hoping for a more general discussion about dominance versus weight jumping... which do you tend to favour when comparing fighters of a similar level?
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Old 02-10-2011, 07:13 AM   #11
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Default Re: what does 'pound for pound' mean for you?

Oh ok, dominance vs weight jumping-

You can't just pick like that, if i've dominated poor opposition and you've moved up in weight beating fine opposition then you're likely to have a better resume. By the same token if i've dominated a great division and you've shown you can beat bigger average fighters then i am likely to have a better resume. This isn't necessarily reflective of who is the better fighter though. Someone like Aaron Pryor doesn't have an outstanding resume but it's clear as day how good a fighter he is.
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Old 02-10-2011, 07:28 AM   #12
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Default Re: what does 'pound for pound' mean for you?

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People seem to wrongfully discredit heavyweights when it comes to this.
Yes they do, its the most sort after prize, with by far the widest weight span, Great HWs are underrated P4P, as are small HWs competing at the weight, ie Patterson is a better P4P boxer than Archie Moore for my money
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Old 02-10-2011, 07:34 AM   #13
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Default Re: what does 'pound for pound' mean for you?

The fighter that stands out as the best in boxing. Has nothing to do with weight.
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Old 02-10-2011, 07:34 AM   #14
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Default Re: what does 'pound for pound' mean for you?

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Originally Posted by goat15 View Post
ok, although i don't agree entirely, with hindsight the examples could have been tighter.

benny leonard or manny pacquiao? joe gans or ray leonard?

on another note, i was hoping for a more general discussion about dominance versus weight jumping... which do you tend to favour when comparing fighters of a similar level?
Weight climbing is very overrated in some cases, men naturally get bigger, some more so than others, winning titles in divisions as you naturally mature while never being at a physical disadvantage is not more impressive the reigning in 1 weight class for the same period if the competition as a whole is equal. The only time Pacquaio has had a real size disadvantages has been at 147 and maybe 140.

It boils down to resume and dominance, and physical disadvantages against the opposition
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Old 02-10-2011, 07:39 AM   #15
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Default Re: what does 'pound for pound' mean for you?

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The fighter that stands out as the best in boxing. Has nothing to do with weight.
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