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Old 02-09-2011, 08:55 PM   #1
goat15
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Default best 'fab four' win?

the fab four faced off numerous times... which wins were the greatest?

mine are:

1) duran over leonard (moving up in weight against a real all-time great who was in his prime, close but clear win. leonard's first loss, and if there was ever a fighter who seemed like he didn't know how to lose, it was leonard)

2) leonard over hearns (not 'convincing', but epic, and at a significant juncture in both men's careers. hearns' first loss)

3) hagler over hearns (emphatic win)

to be honest, none of the other fights between these four really do it for me in terms of being 'great' wins. although duran's performance against hagler was great, and leonard's performance against hagler (even putting the result to one side) was impressive.
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Old 02-09-2011, 09:35 PM   #2
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Default Re: best 'fab four' win?

Yup, gotta be Duran over Leonard. And I disagree that it was close.

I would also argue that Duran's loss to Hagler was a significant "win" for Hands of Stone, who fought Hags closer to his prime, miles above his natural weight, and for the championship distance. Leonard would later challenge him after decidedly finding Marvelous had slowed down, and only for the twelve rounds.
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Old 02-09-2011, 09:50 PM   #3
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Default Re: best 'fab four' win?

the comparison to leonard is apt, trixie.

duran may have been patchy post-prime, but he took on all-comers and often accepted long odds at the opening bell (that's not to say that leonard never fought as the underdog, but he did his best to level the playing field out of the ring - a skill in itself!)

leonard has a lovely record on paper, while duran's may seem more obviously flawed. both great fighters, and certainly not as much between them as their respective head-to-heads against the rest of the fab four may initially suggest.

how did you score duran leonard if you didn't think it was close?
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Old 02-10-2011, 04:13 AM   #4
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Default Re: best 'fab four' win?

Hearns over Duran was the most complete.
Hagler over Hearns was exciting
Leonard over Hagler and Hearns most impressive.
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Old 02-10-2011, 04:15 AM   #5
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Default Re: best 'fab four' win?

Quote:
Originally Posted by goat15 View Post
the fab four faced off numerous times... which wins were the greatest?

mine are:

1) duran over leonard (moving up in weight against a real all-time great who was in his prime, close but clear win. leonard's first loss, and if there was ever a fighter who seemed like he didn't know how to lose, it was leonard)

2) leonard over hearns (not 'convincing', but epic, and at a significant juncture in both men's careers. hearns' first loss)

3) hagler over hearns (emphatic win)

to be honest, none of the other fights between these four really do it for me in terms of being 'great' wins. although duran's performance against hagler was great, and leonard's performance against hagler (even putting the result to one side) was impressive.
Duran was not moving up in weight. He fought at 154 as early as 1978. And Ray was not great in 1980. He was not as complete as he was after he fought Duran's fight. When Ray fought his fight in the rematch Duran lost easily.
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Old 02-10-2011, 04:33 AM   #6
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Default Re: best 'fab four' win?

1. Duran W15 Leonard
2. Leonard TKO14 Hearns
3. Leonard W12 Hagler
4. Hearns KO2 Duran
5. Hagler TKO3 Hearns

Some of the greatest wins in boxing history.
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Old 02-10-2011, 05:18 AM   #7
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Default Re: best 'fab four' win?

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Originally Posted by MAG1965 View Post
Duran was not moving up in weight. He fought at 154 as early as 1978. And Ray was not great in 1980. He was not as complete as he was after he fought Duran's fight. When Ray fought his fight in the rematch Duran lost easily.
title fights are a different animal. so, he fought a bum to keep active at junior-middle. point taken, though, he was comfortable at welterweight.

leonard did beat duran convincingly in the rematch, but to say it's 'because he fought his fight' and to imply leonard always beats duran if he fights his own fight is naive. leonard was one of the most adaptable boxers in history - there was nothing he could do about duran in montreal. likewise, there was nothing duran could do about leonard in the rematch. both great fighters, both won fighting 'their' fights.

also, if you think leonard was mindlessly brawling with duran for fifteen rounds in montreal, you need to watch more closely. leonard tries to keep a distance at times, and starts to get into the fight in the middle rounds, but duran hunts him down in the end.

and come on now, saying that leonard wasn't great in 1980...! the duran fights were in between his benitez and hearns wins. he was great in 1980.
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Old 02-10-2011, 05:19 AM   #8
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Default Re: best 'fab four' win?

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Originally Posted by the cobra View Post
1. Duran W15 Leonard
2. Leonard TKO14 Hearns
3. Leonard W12 Hagler
4. Hearns KO2 Duran
5. Hagler TKO3 Hearns

Some of the greatest wins in boxing history.
i really like this order, can see the train of thought.
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Old 02-10-2011, 11:51 AM   #9
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Default Re: best 'fab four' win?

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Originally Posted by goat15 View Post
title fights are a different animal. so, he fought a bum to keep active at junior-middle. point taken, though, he was comfortable at welterweight.

leonard did beat duran convincingly in the rematch, but to say it's 'because he fought his fight' and to imply leonard always beats duran if he fights his own fight is naive. leonard was one of the most adaptable boxers in history - there was nothing he could do about duran in montreal. likewise, there was nothing duran could do about leonard in the rematch. both great fighters, both won fighting 'their' fights.

also, if you think leonard was mindlessly brawling with duran for fifteen rounds in montreal, you need to watch more closely. leonard tries to keep a distance at times, and starts to get into the fight in the middle rounds, but duran hunts him down in the end.

and come on now, saying that leonard wasn't great in 1980...! the duran fights were in between his benitez and hearns wins. he was great in 1980.
no I do not think it is naive at all since Ray's whole fight was to box Duran. You don't stand and box Duran, that is like Kobe trying to out rebound Shaq. When Kobe shoots from the outside Shaq cannot do anything about it, and Ray boxed and Duran couldn't do anything, which is supported by other times Duran fought speed like Hearns and Benitez.
Yes I think Ray was trying to outgut Duran and he got caught up in it. Ray was trying to get room to get leverage, but not keep distance. In the second fight he was using his speed to outbox Duran and make him look silly and he did just that. Compare round one's in both fights. Ray at the time was also green in June and and not yet the atg he was when he fought Tommy Hearns over a year later. That Duran fight taught Ray to always fight his fight and to always have the advantage. He learned. After the first fight, Ray beats Duran easily everytime out. It is not a matter of Ray fighting Duran's fight because Duran made him, Ray easily fought his fight after that.
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Old 02-10-2011, 11:53 AM   #10
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Default Re: best 'fab four' win?

Quote:
Originally Posted by goat15 View Post
title fights are a different animal. so, he fought a bum to keep active at junior-middle. point taken, though, he was comfortable at welterweight.

leonard did beat duran convincingly in the rematch, but to say it's 'because he fought his fight' and to imply leonard always beats duran if he fights his own fight is naive. leonard was one of the most adaptable boxers in history - there was nothing he could do about duran in montreal. likewise, there was nothing duran could do about leonard in the rematch. both great fighters, both won fighting 'their' fights.

also, if you think leonard was mindlessly brawling with duran for fifteen rounds in montreal, you need to watch more closely. leonard tries to keep a distance at times, and starts to get into the fight in the middle rounds, but duran hunts him down in the end.

and come on now, saying that leonard wasn't great in 1980...! the duran fights were in between his benitez and hearns wins. he was great in 1980.
He was a great fighter, but not 1-5 ATG. Duran fans in 1980 say he was greater than what he was because they believe he won his best fight in 1980. But he fought Benitez a little over a year after the Leonard rematch. And he did not do well at all with a fast ATG. Duran does not have the wins over ATG fighters he should to be regarded as high as he is.
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Old 02-10-2011, 12:10 PM   #11
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Default Re: best 'fab four' win?

duran beating leonard
hagler beating hearns
leonard beating hearns
hearns beating duran
leonard getting the decision over hagler
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Old 02-10-2011, 12:28 PM   #12
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Default Re: best 'fab four' win?

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Originally Posted by Trixie View Post
Yup, gotta be Duran over Leonard. And I disagree that it was close.

I would also argue that Duran's loss to Hagler was a significant "win" for Hands of Stone, who fought Hags closer to his prime, miles above his natural weight, and for the championship distance. Leonard would later challenge him after decidedly finding Marvelous had slowed down, and only for the twelve rounds.
Leonard over Hagler, Duran and Hearns, Hearns destruction of Duran, Hagler's destruction of Hearns....are lesser wins than Duran's loss to Hagler. Welcome to ESB Classic.
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Old 02-10-2011, 01:21 PM   #13
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Default Re: best 'fab four' win?

1. Leonard over Haagler. Huge upset.
2. Leonard over Duran (second fight). Made the "tough guy" quit.
3. Hagler over Hearns. The cercimstances of Duran having beaten Leonard and Hagler being a heavy favroite to beat Leonard gives the above 2 wins the edge over this one.
4. Leonard over Hearns. Leonard had to dig deep down for this one.
5. Hearns over Duran. Probbly the most lopsided result. However Leonard had already exposed Duran.
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Old 02-10-2011, 08:15 PM   #14
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Default Re: best 'fab four' win?

All the fab 4`s best wins came vs each other.... Duran over Leonard, Hearns over Duran, Hagler over Hearns & Leonard over Hagler.

They were all great in their own way but its probably between Leonard over Hagler & Duran over Leonard since both times the smaller underdog won vs an elite p4p bigger man.

You could argue Duran over SRL was better because they were in their primes & SRL was unbeaten at the time but you could counter that by saying SRL had not fought in 3 yrs & had only 1 fight in 5 n a half yrs before outboxing Hagler, who had not lost for 11 yrs.
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Old 02-10-2011, 08:36 PM   #15
goat15
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Default Re: best 'fab four' win?

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Originally Posted by MAG1965 View Post
He was a great fighter, but not 1-5 ATG. Duran fans in 1980 say he was greater than what he was because they believe he won his best fight in 1980. But he fought Benitez a little over a year after the Leonard rematch. And he did not do well at all with a fast ATG. Duran does not have the wins over ATG fighters he should to be regarded as high as he is.
agreed, a great fighter but definitely not in the top five of all time. i didn't realise he was considered that high up generally? from what i can see, and it seems many agree, langford, greb, armstrong, charles and robinson (not in order) have the top five places sewn up... duran doesn't get much of a look in when in this sort of company.

duran certainly struggled with quick boxers, that was a bad style match up for him. few boxers are without weaknesses, though.

also, look at the consensus opinion in this thread. you are downplaying his win over leonard, but it seems that most think that it's the best win of the fab four (haven't counted, just seemed like that). i'm not simply appealing to the masses, just saying that maybe they're seeing something you're not.
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