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Old 02-17-2011, 07:48 PM   #1
willcross
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Default What's the highest you can honestly rate these heavyweights?

I came up with this idea for a thread, can't remember seeing it here, but you know what they say, There's nothing new under the sun.

Everyone knows heavyweight top ten lists are subjective. So instead of trying to come up with a single list. What's the highest you could justify ranking the following fighters? I'll skip the obvious Joe Louis and Ali since they are usually 1 and 2 in whatever order you please.

Sonny Liston

Larry Holmes

George Foreman

Jack Dempsey

Mike Tyson

Wlad Klitchsko

Vitali Klitchsko

Lennox Lewis

Joe Frazier

Rocky Marciano

Evander Holyfield

Gene Tunney

And any others you may think may be interesting. Will post my list in the next message.
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Old 02-17-2011, 08:08 PM   #2
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Default Re: What's the highest you can honestly rate these heavyweights?

Sonny Liston- Liston is one of my favorite fighters but I can't rank him high. It's not that he's bad, there are just too many fighters with more to offer. He gets mostly remembered for 2 things. Beating Patterson, which was impressive, and stinking it up against Ali twice. Maybe his opportunities came too late in life for him. Highest would be maybe 8.

Larry Holmes- Easy for me. I could make him number three. He is my number 3 in fact. I can't see him being greater than Ali or Louis in resume. He prolly beats Louis head to head but I don't rate that much in my lists. But with his long reign, great skills, and how well he fought even as he aged. I think he is a solid number 3.

George Foreman-Foreman isn't the 3rd best heavyweight. There are a couple better choices. But I would have no problem having him the 4th. Great power, great wins over Frazier, Norton was good, as was Lyle. Incredible comeback 20 years later gives him the nod for 4th.

Jack Dempsey-I really struggle to get Dempsey in a top ten list. Short title reign, and while great for his time, everything he does, I can think of someone who does it better. Top rank of 10.

Mike Tyson-Tyson is outside of the top 5 for me for sure. Fairly short reign at the top, very short prime. Few truly great wins in my opinion. Although the Spinks win gets underrated. Tyson is in the second tier for sure. Best I could rank him is about 6th. In reality I have him at 9 or 10.

Wlad Klitchsko It's hard to judge fighters still active. Personally I'd wait till a few years after his retirement to rank him. Interested to see what you guys think.

Vitali Klitchsko-see above

Lennox Lewis- Lennox was a great fighter. Very solid but not great resume, great power and skills. His two blemishes, while avenged and forgiveable. Keep him out of the upper echelon for me since they happened in his prime. He could be 4 or 5 tho.

Joe Frazier-Call me crazy but I think Frazier gets overrated sometimes. He could have been incredible if Ali and Foreman chose other career paths. I agree with that. But the fact is they didn't. Ali showed he could be outboxed, Foreman showed he could be outslugged. I still think he's great but just alittle overated. Maybe it's personal bias but I top him out at 7

Rocky Marciano-Marciano could also be argued for number three. Great chin, great power, great record. Maybe not a great prime opponent that stands out but overall a good body of work. Undefeated and very popular, which contributes to the idea of "greatness" in some ways.

Evander Holyfield- Holyfield is the trickest to rate of this whole list in my opinion. I could see ranking him anywhere from 3 to 10. It just depends on who you like, what your criteria are, and what time periods you favor. He has a few losses, blew hot and cold in the 90s. But he has fought in 4 different decades, multiple champion, came up from cruiserweight to accomplish all this. and can never be counted out of a fight

Gene Tunney- Tunney is just shy of top ten for me. Even being generous I can't see him in there. What about you?

Well i'm sure you guys will rip this to shreds lol. But that's what great and kind of my point. Lists are incredibly subjective. Well let's here it!
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Old 02-17-2011, 08:26 PM   #3
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Default Re: What's the highest you can honestly rate these heavyweights?

Willcross, well reasoned resposes. I honestly not disagree with any of your ratings, tho perhaps I rate Foreman a tad lower.
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Old 02-17-2011, 08:41 PM   #4
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Default Re: What's the highest you can honestly rate these heavyweights?

Quote:
Originally Posted by willcross View Post
I came up with this idea for a thread, can't remember seeing it here, but you know what they say, There's nothing new under the sun.

Everyone knows heavyweight top ten lists are subjective. So instead of trying to come up with a single list. What's the highest you could justify ranking the following fighters? I'll skip the obvious Joe Louis and Ali since they are usually 1 and 2 in whatever order you please.

Sonny Liston

Larry Holmes

George Foreman

Jack Dempsey

Mike Tyson

Wlad Klitchsko

Vitali Klitchsko

Lennox Lewis

Joe Frazier

Rocky Marciano

Evander Holyfield

Gene Tunney

And any others you may think may be interesting. Will post my list in the next message.
Could, Could, Could... Maybe...

Marciano #1 (based off of the 49-0 overall record, 7-0 (6) HW World Title Fight record, and 6-0 (5) mark vs. Hall of Famers)

Holmes #2
Foreman #2
Holyfield #3
Lewis #3
Frazier #4
Tyson #4
W. Klitschko #5 (sometimes size matters)
V. Klitschko #5
Tunney #6 (size or lack of it sometimes matters)
Dempsey #6
Liston #6
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Old 02-17-2011, 08:49 PM   #5
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Default Re: What's the highest you can honestly rate these heavyweights?

Charles top 10 at best...

he beat a faded Louis, was better than Walcott despite going 2-2 vs. him (most felt he won 3 out of 4), gave a prime Marciano hell in his 98th and 99th pro fights

from '46- to his first loss to Walcott in '51 he went 39-1 only losing to Elmer Ray via very close decision. He stopped Ray in a rematch. Along the way he went 9-0 in HW World Title Fights. He is the best LHW ever IMO.

he also dominated tough LHW/HWs Moore and Maxim going 8-0 vs. them.
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Old 02-18-2011, 02:12 PM   #6
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Default Re: What's the highest you can honestly rate these heavyweights?

Quote:
Originally Posted by willcross View Post
Sonny Liston- Liston is one of my favorite fighters but I can't rank him high. It's not that he's bad, there are just too many fighters with more to offer. He gets mostly remembered for 2 things. Beating Patterson, which was impressive, and stinking it up against Ali twice. Maybe his opportunities came too late in life for him. Highest would be maybe 8.

Larry Holmes- Easy for me. I could make him number three. He is my number 3 in fact. I can't see him being greater than Ali or Louis in resume. He prolly beats Louis head to head but I don't rate that much in my lists. But with his long reign, great skills, and how well he fought even as he aged. I think he is a solid number 3.

George Foreman-Foreman isn't the 3rd best heavyweight. There are a couple better choices. But I would have no problem having him the 4th. Great power, great wins over Frazier, Norton was good, as was Lyle. Incredible comeback 20 years later gives him the nod for 4th.

Jack Dempsey-I really struggle to get Dempsey in a top ten list. Short title reign, and while great for his time, everything he does, I can think of someone who does it better. Top rank of 10.

Mike Tyson-Tyson is outside of the top 5 for me for sure. Fairly short reign at the top, very short prime. Few truly great wins in my opinion. Although the Spinks win gets underrated. Tyson is in the second tier for sure. Best I could rank him is about 6th. In reality I have him at 9 or 10.

Wlad Klitchsko It's hard to judge fighters still active. Personally I'd wait till a few years after his retirement to rank him. Interested to see what you guys think.

Vitali Klitchsko-see above

Lennox Lewis- Lennox was a great fighter. Very solid but not great resume, great power and skills. His two blemishes, while avenged and forgiveable. Keep him out of the upper echelon for me since they happened in his prime. He could be 4 or 5 tho.

Joe Frazier-Call me crazy but I think Frazier gets overrated sometimes. He could have been incredible if Ali and Foreman chose other career paths. I agree with that. But the fact is they didn't. Ali showed he could be outboxed, Foreman showed he could be outslugged. I still think he's great but just alittle overated. Maybe it's personal bias but I top him out at 7

Rocky Marciano-Marciano could also be argued for number three. Great chin, great power, great record. Maybe not a great prime opponent that stands out but overall a good body of work. Undefeated and very popular, which contributes to the idea of "greatness" in some ways.

Evander Holyfield- Holyfield is the trickest to rate of this whole list in my opinion. I could see ranking him anywhere from 3 to 10. It just depends on who you like, what your criteria are, and what time periods you favor. He has a few losses, blew hot and cold in the 90s. But he has fought in 4 different decades, multiple champion, came up from cruiserweight to accomplish all this. and can never be counted out of a fight

Gene Tunney- Tunney is just shy of top ten for me. Even being generous I can't see him in there. What about you?

Well i'm sure you guys will rip this to shreds lol. But that's what great and kind of my point. Lists are incredibly subjective. Well let's here it!
So, you say "everything Dempsey does, I can think of someone that does it better".B.S.,with all due respect.Who for example can destroy a Jess Willard
,NEVER FLOORED before,quicker or better,than Dempsey.?Who would pulverize a bull like Firpo more impressively than Dempsey did in the second round ,
with 2 vicious inclose blows,too fast for the camera to pick up ? Who ? Who
scored TWENTY FIVE or more first round kos ?Who do you know was a rougher, tougher infighter at heavyweight.? What heavyweight in his PRIME
was considered as fast in his movements as a Welterweight,than Dempsey ?
You have a right in your opinions, and i have a right to challenge some of your assumptions..
Your idol Ali,had many flaws in his arsenal. MANY things he did others did MUCH better, but we must take the overall package Ali,and other top heavyweights had in totality, to rate them. Not to single out a Dempsey that his contemporaries,who saw him at his prime and raved about.
One last point- No fighter in history was better in every aspect of boxing skills
than your criteria of Dempsey. Cheers...
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Old 02-18-2011, 02:23 PM   #7
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Default Re: What's the highest you can honestly rate these heavyweights?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hookie View Post
Could, Could, Could... Maybe...

Marciano #1 (based off of the 49-0 overall record, 7-0 (6) HW World Title Fight record, and 6-0 (5) mark vs. Hall of Famers)

Holmes #2
Foreman #2
Holyfield #3
Lewis #3
Frazier #4
Tyson #4
W. Klitschko #5 (sometimes size matters)
V. Klitschko #5
Tunney #6 (size or lack of it sometimes matters)
Dempsey #6
Liston #6

Some one else who has Rocky Marciano at number 1 !!!!!???
Quality!!!

yeah before anyone comes along I gotta say Rocky Marciano greatest of all times for me - Rocky no.1

The prime Dempsey of Willard massacre number 2 - nobody else gets ahead of him

Liston is my number 6 of all time

Larry Holmes is my number 7

Foreman is 8

Tyson is 9 - the Mitch Green version

peak Holy is at 13

Lennox is 14 (the 227lb peak Lennox from the Ruddock days that is)

Tunney is 15 behind Lennox

next comes Smokin Joe at 16

I'll reserve judgement on the Kilts until they retire certainly Vit is behind Lennox (and probably a couple of others aswell) and Vlad I don't rate as highly as Vit so there you go
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Old 02-18-2011, 02:46 PM   #8
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Default Re: What's the highest you can honestly rate these heavyweights?

Sonny Liston = He should be in ANYONE'S Top 15. He just has so many unanswered questions and mysteries around him. That hurts his ranking IMO.

Larry Holmes = Top 5 no doubt.

George Foreman = Top 10 easily, but he gets VERY overrated. He has VERY few great wins. Frazier was still champ and still a great fighter... but not at his peak. Norton was..well... Norton. Qawi was good but past it and Moorer was a good win for Foreman.

Jack Dempsey = Top 5 IMO.

Mike Tyson = Top 8 IMO.

Wlad Klitchsko = wait till career it over.

Vitali Klitchsko = wait till career is over.

Lennox Lewis = Top 12 (not Top 10 IMO). HUGELY, DISGUSTINGLY overrated by some people, which makes me turn against the fighter (because of the fans). Much like Pacquiao.

Joe Frazier = Top 10

Rocky Marciano = Top 10

Evander Holyfield = Top 6

Gene Tunney = Don't really know. He could very well be in the top 10 without problems.

Ezzard Charles = Same as Tunney

Floyd Patterson = Top 15

Riddick Bowe = Top 20

Jack Johnson = Top 5

Harry Wills = Top 20
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Old 02-18-2011, 02:58 PM   #9
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Default Re: What's the highest you can honestly rate these heavyweights?

Sonny Liston #3

Larry Holmes #3

George Foreman #3

Jack Dempsey, ich, maybe #5 if you were making a h2h list and were high on him I wouldn't argue

Mike Tyson #5, ditto

Wlad Klitchsko #15

Vitali Klitchsko #16

Lennox Lewis #3

Joe Frazier #3

Rocky Marciano #3

Evander Holyfield #6

Gene Tunney #11
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Old 02-18-2011, 03:03 PM   #10
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Default Re: What's the highest you can honestly rate these heavyweights?

Sonny Liston - 10

Larry Holmes - 3

George Foreman - 6

Jack Dempsey - 15

Mike Tyson - 6

Wlad Klitchsko - 12

Vitali Klitchsko - 14

Lennox Lewis - 3

Joe Frazier - 7

Rocky Marciano - 3

Evander Holyfield - 8

Gene Tunney - 15
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Old 02-18-2011, 03:08 PM   #11
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Default Re: What's the highest you can honestly rate these heavyweights?

Haha, Demspey at 15 that's brutal.
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Old 02-18-2011, 03:10 PM   #12
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Default Re: What's the highest you can honestly rate these heavyweights?

Lennox Lewis may be the only one who could defeat everyone on that list.
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Old 02-18-2011, 03:18 PM   #13
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Default Re: What's the highest you can honestly rate these heavyweights?

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Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
Haha, Demspey at 15 that's brutal.
I have:

Ali
Louis

Marciano
Holmes
Lewis

Foreman
Tyson

Johnson
Frazier
Holyfield

There is absolutely no way he is breaking into that top 10 of World Heavyweight Champions. Being only the White Heavyweight Champion himself.
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Old 02-18-2011, 03:21 PM   #14
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Default Re: What's the highest you can honestly rate these heavyweights?

I have him at 14 personally, but 15 is the highest you can see him ranked without getting that itch? To me, the gaps between these guys are slender.
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Old 02-18-2011, 04:20 PM   #15
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Default Re: What's the highest you can honestly rate these heavyweights?

Liston #14 beat an exposed champion and choked against the other one.

holmes #5


foreman #9 should not have lost to ali by KO.


dempsey #4


Tyson # 10 Kod by more champs than he beat

Klit still active
Klit still active

lewis # 7 Kod in prime x2


frazier #18 ruined his rating by not retireing after TFOTC

marciano #3


holyfeild #8


Tunney #22 did not fight enough heavyweights. did not KO any HW champions.
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