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View Poll Results: Who`s the sweetest welterweight ever ?
Sugar Ray Robinson 25 67.57%
Sugar Ray Leonard 12 32.43%
Voters: 37. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 11-16-2007, 08:11 AM   #16
Bill Butcher
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Default Re: 147 lb Tourney Final - SUGAR v SUGAR

SRR has the reach & the power, that might give him the edge because both are fast, great stamina, good finishers, super skills & the heart of a champion.

I think the reach & power will slow srl down in the last 3/4 rds enough for srr to pull away narrowly on the cards with srl still there at the end like a warrior.

In the end, I think robinson takes a UD by about 9-6 or 8-6-1 in rds.

If anyone can, leonard can but me thinks no-one can at 147.
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Old 11-16-2007, 08:11 AM   #17
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Default Re: 147 lb Tourney Final - SUGAR v SUGAR

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain

Why? Punching, he loses. Footspeed, he loses. Aggression, he loses. Ring generalship...borderline, but he loses. Adaptability, close, but Robinson holds all the aces for changing this match, so he loses. What does he bring to upset Robinson? Specificifally.
You're getting far too hung up on what seems so on paper. If it worked this simple betting would not exist. I myself am not predicting a Leonard win, but i find your comment he would be Robinson's easiest match among the top 12 quite simply, astounding. Anyone writing Leonard off easily in any match at 147 does not fathom the substance of the man. As i said, Robinson had some tough matches at 147 with fighters far less talented than SRL, yet he easily outstripped them in every available asset. How could this have been? This is a tough night out for SRR, and he'd better bring his best to the table.
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Old 11-16-2007, 08:12 AM   #18
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Default Re: 147 lb Tourney Final - SUGAR v SUGAR

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Originally Posted by Bill Butcher
SRR has the reach & the power, that might give him the edge because both are fast, great stamina, good finishers, super skills & the heart of a champion.

I think the reach & power will slow srl down in the last 3/4 rds enough for srr to pull away narrowly on the cards with srl still there at the end like a warrior.

In the end, I think robinson takes a UD by about 9-6 or 8-6-1 in rds.

If anyone can, leonard can but me thinks no-one can at 147.
Great post, totally agree with Robinson easing away from Leonard late.
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Old 11-16-2007, 08:17 AM   #19
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Default Re: 147 lb Tourney Final - SUGAR v SUGAR

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Originally Posted by JohnThomas1
You're getting far too hung up on what seems so on paper. If it worked this simple betting would not exist.
It's funny you should say this - i consider myself pretty moderate with my picks, I don't see myself as someone who very often insists for exactly this reason. If anything the opposite is true - i'm imagining specific style clashes rather than rellying upon resume news, which you have done, or tale of the tape, which Bill does above (nothing wrong with either - just saying).

Find me someoene else who looks at what's on paper and comes up with "easy win for Robinson" and we'll have something to talk about.

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I myself am not predicting a Leonard win, but i find your comment he would be Robinson's easiest match among the top 12 quite simply, astounding.
Specifically, why? I've explained my position pretty clearly - Robinson edges Leonard in almost every area, the ones where he doesn't don't seem important to me as regards this match up. I'm not hating on Leonard, who I rate, I'm not bigging up Robinson, who I dislike (ducked a lot of my favourites you see). It's just the way I see it.
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Old 11-16-2007, 08:35 AM   #20
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Default Re: 147 lb Tourney Final - SUGAR v SUGAR

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain
It's funny you should say this - i consider myself pretty moderate with my picks, I don't see myself as someone who very often insists for exactly this reason. If anything the opposite is true - i'm imagining specific style clashes rather than rellying upon resume news, which you have done, or tale of the tape, which Bill does above (nothing wrong with either - just saying).
Tell me how SRR beats Leonard easier than anyone else in the top 12 at 147. How do you envisage this easy win going?

Me, i see SRL blinding handspeed (faster than SRR had ever seen before) keeping him in both rounds and exchanges, i see his excellent durability and elusiveness keeping him both standing and competitive thru the length of the fight, his brilliant stamina will not see him fold and his power will keep SRR honest. His adaptability is second to none and this will see him winning some rounds and staying ever competitive. Again, even Robinson had his challenges at 147 and it is far from credible to see an immense talent like SRL pushing him hard and bringing out the best in him. Robinson doesn't have the reach and jabbing scythe that Thomas Hearns did. SRR does not have the reach on Leonard and a deep study will show this to be very integral to Leonard's competitiveness here.
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Old 11-16-2007, 08:51 AM   #21
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Default Re: 147 lb Tourney Final - SUGAR v SUGAR

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Originally Posted by JohnThomas1
Tell me how SRR beats Leonard easier than anyone else in the top 12 at 147. How do you envisage this easy win going?
If Leonard looks to keep out of the way he's trying to do it with the best footwork he's ever been in with - now, I actually don't think this means he will fail to stay clear of very serious exchanges because he probably Could. But doing so would be exhausting. He'd be re-cutting the ring constantly, changing direction constantly, ont he back foot constantly because of Robinson's quickness. Robinson also has the better stamina here, of that there is little dount, although Leonard is no slouch.

For the first half of the fight here, you'd see Robinson win some rounds on aggression and punching and Leonard win some rounds on counterpunching and defence. I perosnally would envisage Robinson taking more of these first 7 or 8 rounds because the areas he's making his scoring in - punching and aggression - tend to be scored more consistantly than defence or counter-punching (unless Robinson is consistantly missing, which is unlikely - and remember, even upon missing Robinson rarely over-reached. His balance was para-normal (is that a word?)). In addition, Leonard in executing this plan won't hurt Robinson, or if he does it will be the exception rather than the rule. The reverse is unlikely to be true.

So we have the first half of the fight as a bigger test of the fighter with the lesser stamina, the less durable fighter being more consistantly hurt, the less accurate puncher counter-punching, the less hurtful puncher throwing less punches. Robinson has not been hurt and has had the rare luxury of using straight ahead footwork. Leonard has been running backwards and possibly been hurt.

The second half of a fight would show us if Leonard had an absolutley extraordinary heart, or just the heart of a great champion. My guess is Leonard, without having really tested or hurt Robinson, starts to seriously flag around ten. By 12 it would be about who was in his corner. If it's Dundee, he's probably sent out for the 13th, and be stoppoed there or in the 14th by the better puncher, boxer and ring general.

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Me, i see SRL blinding handspeed (faster than SRR had ever seen before)
This is true, but I had the same argument with Senya about Calzaghe-Kessler a fortnight ago. Just becase Calzaghe has ditched only second class jabs doesn't mean that he will be unable to ditch a world class jab when he steps up. Just as I would be astonished if Leonard is automaticlaly "caught" because Robinson has better footwork than any of his other opponents, so I would be astonished if Robinson's incredble reactions were suddenly dulled because he stepped in with the fastest (handspeed) fighter he'd taken on.

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keeping him in both rounds and exchanges,
Exchanges? If there are many exchanges this could be a slaughter. Leonard has to get away, there are good-punching middles who couldn't keep Robinson off, if Leonard tries to do so with his fairy dust (Relative, of course) he might get stopped early. I see Leonard pot shotting in ones and twos whilst shifting directions, changing the angles. He'd have medium success against the fastest man (reactions) he's ever been in with. OK, Duran may be comparable, actually.

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His adaptability is second to none and this will see him winning some rounds and staying ever competitive.
YOu are right, he is a very adaptable fighter, but how does that help him in this one? What adaptions can he make, really? See what I'm saying? Not that Leonard is not good, but that he is no good against Robinson.

Last edited by McGrain; 11-16-2007 at 09:40 AM.
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Old 11-16-2007, 08:53 AM   #22
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Default Re: 147 lb Tourney Final - SUGAR v SUGAR

Leonard on points over 15...The second sugar is more adaptable and will get the balance right between boxing,punching and brawling...I dont see robinson outboxing leonard as i dont think he has the style of tommy hearns or the inclination...Robinson has never met anyone with the speed and intelligence of ray leonard,whilst leonard has met and tamed the different though comparable offensive/pressurising capabilities of duran,hearns and hagler (conversely he also beat and outhought the master defense of benitez.)..Leonard is too smart to just try to brawl with a true welter bomber like robinson and his defense will be key in this fight...A true masterclass of skills and competition with leonards intelligence,defense and adaptability winning the day....
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Old 11-16-2007, 09:08 AM   #23
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Default Re: 147 lb Tourney Final - SUGAR v SUGAR

Mcgrain,i can see why most will pick robinson,but most underestimate leonards balls,punch power and intelligence,and i think you are grossly underrating ray and overstating robinson...Lets remember leonard was never stopped or near to stopped at welter,that he finshed very strongly against hearns,duran and benitez in very competitive fights. (14,15 and 15 rounds.) I dont see how robinsons stamina is better at 147,who did robinson show this superior stamina against?
Hearns was superior as a one punch hitter to robinson and yet never at any point did he have a stoppage opportunity,hearns was also as fast and as elusive as robinson at welter with a better jab...I will concede robinson may have had the better overall arsenal,but without the jab and reach of hearns he cannot just outbox or bomb without catching some fire back....I think you dont appreciate the power of leonard at 147,i dont think robinson could walk through leonards power or speed...
Robinson wont outhink or outspeed ray leonard without borrowing tommy hearns' height,jab and reach....
Robinson wins this by outpunching/outworking leonard,roberto duran style....
Maybe a 50/50 fight....

Last edited by enquirer; 11-16-2007 at 09:23 AM.
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Old 11-16-2007, 09:29 AM   #24
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Default Re: 147 lb Tourney Final - SUGAR v SUGAR

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain
If Leonard looks to keep out of the way he's trying to do it with the best footwork he's ever been in with - now, I actually don't think this means he will fail to stay clear of very serious exchanges because he probably would be. But doing so would be exhausting. He'd be re-cutting the ring constantly, changing direction constantly, ont he back foot constantly because of Robinson's quickness.
Leonard had to deal with some serious offensive firepower and stalking in Hearns, then had to turn the chaser at various times, then back etc. Robinson will also be hunting the best mover he has ever faced. It's twofold. Don't think Leonard has to run, this isn't 160 against a bigger man.

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Robinson also has the better stamina here, of that there is little dount, although Leonard is no slouch.
Personally i don't think it is as doubtless as you claim. Leonard came back to win a couple of rounds very late vs a Duran who had really gone at him, to the body too. Leonard also showed brilliant stamina when rallying very late vs Hearns. I think you are again cutting Leonard a little short.

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For the first half of the fight here, you'd see Robinson win some rounds on aggression and punching and Leonard win some rounds on counterpunching and defence. I perosnally would envisage Robinson taking more of these first 7 or 8 rounds because the areas he's making his scoring in - punching and aggression - tend to be scored more consistantly than defence or counter-punching (unless Robinson is consistantly missing, which is unlikely - and remember, even upon missing Robinson rarely over-reached. His balance was para-normal (is that a word?)).
All of a sudden you are seeing both win some rounds in the first 7 or 8. Your tone might indicate 4-3 or 5-3. I find this to be slightly against your claim SRR will beat Leonard easier than anyone else he'd face in the top 12. Heck it's entirely possible there's fighters in the top 12 that might not be on their feet at this stage.

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In addition, Leonard in executing this plan won't hurt Robinson, or if he does it will be the exception rather than the rule. The reverse is unlikely to be true.
Robinson was stunned by lesser punchers than Leonard, unlikely i agree but certainly not beyond the realm.

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So we have the first half of the fight as a bigger test of the fighter with the lesser stamina, the less durable fighter being more consistantly hurt, the less accurate puncher counter-punching, the less hurtful puncher throwing less punches.
Yet you say Leonard will take some of these rounds. What you describe above sounds like an utter thrashing.

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Robinson has not been hurt and has had the rare luxury of using straight ahead footwork. Leonard has been running backwards and possibly been hurt.
Totally disagree. Leonard will be moving laterally far more often than backward. There's a big difference. It seems to me you are picturing the Leonard that fought Hagler, and this fight isn't near the same vein. Even vs Hearns Leonard wasn't "running". Robinson is not bigger than Leonard here, unlike Hagler.

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The second half of a fight would show us if Leonard had an absolutley extraordinary heart, or just the heart of a great champion. My guess is Leonard, without having really tested or hurt Robinson, starts to seriously flag around ten. By 12 it would be about who was in his corner. If it's Dundee, he's probably sent out for the 13th, and be stoppoed there or in the 14th by the better puncher, boxer and ring general.
Personally i think the slightly better Robinson might ease away and win the fight in the last 5. I only see maybe a 2 point diff or similar.

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This is true, but I had the same argument with Senya about Calzaghe-Kessler a fortnight ago. Just becase Calzaghe has ditched only second class jabs doesn't mean that he will be unable to ditch a world class jab when he steps up.
Is Kessler's jab that good? Calz was a damn proven fighter, he wasn't about to succumb his unbeaten to a mere jab. Calz has a variety of answers to a decent jab. Leonards handspeed will be far more beneficial than the Kessler jab Senya overtrumped substancially. Granted it won't defeat Robbo on it's own but it's going to factor in some.

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Exchanges? If there are many exchanges this could be a slaughter. Leonard has to get away, there are good-punching middles who couldn't keep Robinson off, if Leonard tries to do so with his fairy dust (Relative, of course) he might get stopped early. I see Leonard pot shotting in ones and twos whilst shifting directions, changing the angles. He'd have medium success against the fastest man (reactions) he's ever been in with. OK, Duran may be comparable, actually.
Again it's a two way street, Leonards reactions are catlike too. You made the wrong comparison tho, Benitez's actual reactions are better than both Duran AND Robinson. He said he had radar in his eyes, and he sure as hell wasn't kidding.

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YOu are right, he is a very adaptable fighter, but how does that help him in this one? What adaptions can he make, really? See what I'm saying? Not that Leonard is not good, but that he is no good against Robinson.
Leonard's adaptions and variety will win him rounds my friend. Not enough rounds for mine but it will be close, certainly closer than you claim IMO. As far as "no good" vs Robinson, i think Leonard will fare better than anyone that ever preceeded him, including the great Gavilan. And that's sayin' something. Leonard is a great survivor, but even his ability to survive is overtaken by his will to win. He will try anything to win this one and has a fantastic corner guiding him. I am taking peak Leonqard to fight this fight, and i see peak Leonard as the one who had just beaten Hearns.

Enjoying the debate mate.
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Old 11-16-2007, 09:30 AM   #25
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Default Re: 147 lb Tourney Final - SUGAR v SUGAR

As the self appointed official ESB oddsmaker i am making SRR 7-5 fave.
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Old 11-16-2007, 09:37 AM   #26
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Default Re: 147 lb Tourney Final - SUGAR v SUGAR

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Originally Posted by enquirer
Mcgrain,i can see why most will pick robinson,but most underestimate leonards balls,punch power and intelligence,and i think you are grossly underrating ray and overstating robinson...
Let's be clear here - I think Robinson is #1 ww all time, I think Leonard is #4. Nothing odd here, nobody is overated or underated. Normally there is next to nothing between 1 and 4. That is also the case here, in terms of pure quality. What I am saying is is that the things the areas where Leonard is very very strong Robinson is either equally strong, stronger, or nearly as strong. Meanwhile, Robinson still has some areas where he completely dominates Leonard (composite punching, power for example). Leonard is overhauled in this match up. It would be competitive because of Leonard's sheer quality, but a clear victory for Robinson, probably by TKO.

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Lets remember leonard was never stopped or near to stopped at welter,that he finshed very strongly against hearns,duran and benitez in very competitive fights. (14,15 and 15 rounds.) I dont see how robinsons stamina is better at 147,who did robinson show this superior stamina against?
At 147 i've never seen him fight, though there are stories. Against LaMotta in their final contest, Robinson was in with one of busiest, durable MW's in history and he set a pace that man couldn't match. Watching that film, a man could believe the myth of "finishing stronger". When he was near peak, Robinson's stamina was limitless for practical purposes and is proven to be so. If you want to talk about fighting more than 15 that might be different.

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Hearns was superior as a one punch hitter to robinson and yet never at any point did he have a stoppage opportunity,hearns was also as fast and as elusive as robinson at welter with a better jab
I agree that Hearns was a better one-punch hitter - I also actually feel he is comparable as a composite punche, very impressive win. I cold not disagree with you more that he is "as elusive at Robinson at welter", I think that is an extraordinary claim. Regardless, I fail to see what the relevance would be here, given that any sensible plan has Leoanrd on the back foot (those who think otherwise should have another look at the Duran I tape and ask themselves what a faster, better puncher would do).

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i dont think robinson could walk through leonards power
I agre with this. But that certainly would not be Robinson's plan unless Leonard decided to brawl with him. If Leoanrd does this then it will be worth Robinsons while to take some punches to score the KO.



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Maybe a 50/50 fight....
I see it as as clear cut as it can be when two greats enter the same ring.
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Old 11-16-2007, 09:40 AM   #27
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Default Re: 147 lb Tourney Final - SUGAR v SUGAR

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Originally Posted by JohnThomas1
Robinson had his close calls at 147 vs fighters not as good as Leonard.

Oh come on mate, if a boxer fights about 100 times at welter he's sure to have a few more close calls than someone who fights 30 times at the weight.



Oh and Robinson's odds are now 8-5 at closing.
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Old 11-16-2007, 09:47 AM   #28
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Default Re: 147 lb Tourney Final - SUGAR v SUGAR

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Originally Posted by My dinner with Conteh
Oh come on mate, if a boxer fights about 100 times at welter he's sure to have a few more close calls than someone who fights 30 times at the weight.



Oh and Robinson's odds are now 8-5 at closing.
Hahaha, fair nuff mate. Don't tell me however that Leonard isn't going to be competitive nor that he will be beaten easier than all others in the top 12.

BBOB i think picked SRR via split decision. This fight is competitive.
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Old 11-16-2007, 09:49 AM   #29
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Default Re: 147 lb Tourney Final - SUGAR v SUGAR

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Originally Posted by JohnThomas1
Hahaha, fair nuff mate. Don't tell me however that Leonard isn't going to be competitive nor that he will be beaten easier than all others in the top 12.

BBOB i think picked SRR via split decision. This fight is competitive.


Of course. No one beats Leonard out of sight. His blinding speed alone wins him some rounds, but Robbi's no slouch and his power would be a factor in swinging rounds his way. Still, UD to SRR but fairly close (9-6).

Last edited by My dinner with Conteh; 11-16-2007 at 10:06 AM.
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Old 11-16-2007, 09:54 AM   #30
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Default Re: 147 lb Tourney Final - SUGAR v SUGAR

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Originally Posted by My dinner with Conteh
Of course. No one beats Leonard out of sight. His blinding speed alone wins him some rounds, but Robbi's njo slough and his power would be a factor in swinging rounds his way. Still, UD to SRR but fairly close (9-6).
And that's about what i have been saying all along mate. 9-6 or maybe 8-6-1 at the closest.
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