Boxing  

Forum Home Boxing Forum European British Classic Aussie MMA Training
Go Back   Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum


View Poll Results: Who`s the sweetest welterweight ever ?
Sugar Ray Robinson 25 67.57%
Sugar Ray Leonard 12 32.43%
Voters: 37. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 11-16-2007, 10:00 AM   #31
enquirer
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,604
vCash: 1000
Default Re: 147 lb Tourney Final - SUGAR v SUGAR

I can see people saying robinson wins,even clearly,but not by stoppage as ray was never even close to being stopped at welter or in fact any weight. (i discount the camcho match.)
There is no concrete example of robinson being superior to leonard in stamina,especially at welter....Leonard showed extraordinary stamina in the two bouts with hearns and duran respectively,remember he moved for the first five rounds v hearns,had his eye closed and was being soundly outboxed but threw huge flurries in the 13th and 14th to force a stoppage,and against duran he was subjected to a pounding and went life and death for fifteen rounds yet still took the last round and never faded... He also finished strongly enough to force a 15 round stoppage v benitez,all these fights occured at welter...
If you think tommy has comparable offense to robinson what makes you think robbie stops leonard if tommy never even came close? Especially seeing as tommy had the better jab to set up the punches...
By tommy being elusive i mean because of his reach and jab keeping him out of trouble,at welter tommy was very elusive...
Duran is a totally different type of fighter to robinson,and in montreal he closed the distance very quickly,bored inside to the body,relentlessly attacked,wrestled and during all this bobbed,weaved and defended,this is not robinsons style at all,so the comparison is not valid,hearns was a faster and better puncher than duran,same as robinson,but lost to leonard....
My main point is i dont feel there is any welter in history who is going to eat leonards punches to score a ko,or beat ray inside schedule...
enquirer is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 11-16-2007, 10:00 AM   #32
McGrain
Diamond Dog
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 37,182
vCash: 1000
Default Re: 147 lb Tourney Final - SUGAR v SUGAR

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnThomas1
Leonard had to deal with some serious offensive firepower and stalking in Hearns, then had to turn the chaser at various times, then back etc. Robinson will also be hunting the best mover he has ever faced. It's twofold. Don't think Leonard has to run, this isn't 160 against a bigger man.
Robinson is slightly bigger with better reach and a far superior offensive arsenal. Leonard is very slightly speedier. If he doesn't run he will be dominated and stopped.

I agree that Robinson will be hunting the best mover he's ever faced. I also think this has no relevance. The list of assets that each man posseses that outstrips the opposition the other man has faced will be long, long. The assets that Leonard has where he outstrips Robinson will be short. This is far more relevant.



Quote:
Personally i don't think it is as doubtless as you claim. Leonard came back to win a couple of rounds very late vs a Duran who had really gone at him, to the body too. Leonard also showed brilliant stamina when rallying very late vs Hearns. I think you are again cutting Leonard a little short.
Nowhere in this thread have I criticised Leonard's stamina. So I am hardly selling him short. I have said that in a 15 round fight Robinson's stamina has been proved limitless for practical purposes. I stand by that.

And my point was relative, which you seem to have dismissed. Leonard is the running counter-punching fighter in this fight (normally doom when you have two speedsters, surely?) which will tax even the greatest of staminas to the absolutle maximum, especially when they are in with a great punhcer. Robinson's stamina would not be tested in this way in this fight.

What this adds up to is actually small things. Tired men are less quick, less decisive, less keen to punch. All fatal here.


Quote:
All of a sudden you are seeing both win some rounds in the first 7 or 8. Your tone might indicate 4-3 or 5-3.
I never claimed a whitewash anywhere. Of course Leonard will win rounds, there is nothing sudden in this. My position again - Robinson would not lose. Robinson would never be in real danger. Robinson would win the fight by late stoppage, taking over almost completely down the back straight.

Quote:
I find this to be slightly against your claim SRR will beat Leonard easier than anyone else he'd face in the top 12.
I stand by it, see no reason to change it based upon the fact that Leoanrd might wins some rounds early by my addmission.


Quote:
Yet you say Leonard will take some of these rounds. What you describe above sounds like an utter thrashing.
That's just a summary of the first part of the fight. Leonard can win rounds whilst spending more stamina than his opponent (As you know) Leonard can also win rounds despite the fact that he is the lesser puncher (As you know).


Quote:
Totally disagree. Leonard will be moving laterally far more often than backward. There's a big difference.
I agree that he'll do plenty of lateral movement BUT when you are in with a very very quick fighter who is a puncher and has excellent footwork you do lots of re-cutting. Lots of changing direction, re-organising. This is almost as bad as back-peddaling - in fact in my limited experience it is worse, although I accept it might not be the case for these boys, it's surely in the same sort of neighbourhood. If you are conceeding that Leonard will be giving ground during the fight, you must also conceed that it will be faster, more difficult with more sudden changes of direction and plan than is normal. Like I said, exhausting.

And even in your version he is still taking many more steps than Robinson, who has better stamina. And I have to be honest with you John, here I don't see your version as realistic.

Quote:
It seems to me you are picturing the Leonard that fought Hagler, and this fight isn't near the same vein. Even vs Hearns Leonard wasn't "running". Robinson is not bigger than Leonard here, unlike Hagler.
Robinson is by far the better puncher (than Leonard). As a composite puncher I rate him in the class above Hagler. Although i accept that Leonard won't behave as he did for Marvin (he had serious stamina issues for that fight IMO) I do think a less timid version of that plan is what he would bring.

He loses though. His best chance for victory is to stand and trade, I guess, hope for the punch. He loses though.



Quote:
Leonard's adaptions and variety will win him rounds my friend.
But what adapations? I honestly don't understand what adaptions Leonard can make, I can't see the alternative fight plan, I can't see what in the ring adjustment will save him.

Quote:
Enjoying the debate mate.
Always a pleasure John.
McGrain is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2007, 10:36 AM   #33
jonesjrp4p1
16 yr old prodigy
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: oswego
Posts: 792
vCash: 1557
Default Re: 147 lb Tourney Final - SUGAR v SUGAR

its a pick em to me but i think robinson will take it in a close ud
jonesjrp4p1 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2007, 10:46 AM   #34
Manassa
-
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: ESB since '05
Posts: 3,883
vCash: 75
Default Re: 147 lb Tourney Final - SUGAR v SUGAR

Ray Leonard?

Benny Leonard would have a better chance of beating Robinson than Ray Leonard.
Manassa is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2007, 10:53 AM   #35
JohnThomas1
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 11,119
vCash: 1000
Default Re: 147 lb Tourney Final - SUGAR v SUGAR

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain
Robinson is slightly bigger with better reach and a far superior offensive arsenal. Leonard is very slightly speedier. If he doesn't run he will be dominated and stopped.
Moving laterally is not the same as running. Why didn't Robinson stop Gavilan in either fight given that he stood his ground? Leonard's offensive arsenal is also not to be scoffed at.

Quote:
I agree that Robinson will be hunting the best mover he's ever faced. I also think this has no relevance.
How could this have no relevance? Given that the said mover hits far far harder than Gavilan.

Quote:
The list of assets that each man posseses that outstrips the opposition the other man has faced will be long, long. The assets that Leonard has where he outstrips Robinson will be short. This is far more relevant.
The first point puts both in unknown territory. It also makes Leonard quite competitive IMO.

Quote:
Nowhere in this thread have I criticised Leonard's stamina.
The quote below

Quote:
Robinson also has the better stamina here, of that there is little dount
leads me to think you might underrate Leonard's stamina a little. He showed superb stamina vs 3 ATG's late in their fights.









Personally i don't think it is as doubtless as you claim. Leonard came back to win a couple of rounds very late vs a Duran who had really gone at him, to the body too. Leonard also showed brilliant stamina when rallying very late vs Hearns. I think you are again cutting Leonard a little short.

Quote:
Nowhere in this thread have I criticised Leonard's stamina. So I am hardly selling him short. I have said that in a 15 round fight Robinson's stamina has been proved limitless for practical purposes. I stand by that.

And my point was relative, which you seem to have dismissed. Leonard is the running counter-punching fighter in this fight (normally doom when you have two speedsters, surely?) which will tax even the greatest of staminas to the absolutle maximum, especially when they are in with a great punhcer. Robinson's stamina would not be tested in this way in this fight.
Leonard had to do plenty vs Hearns. I do agree tho that SRR eases away late, have always agreed. I cannot however see Leonard being stopped at all.

Quote:
What this adds up to is actually small things. Tired men are less quick, less decisive, less keen to punch. All fatal here.
TBH i cannot see Leonard being any more tired than he was vs Duran, a brutal battle. He'd never been under anything like that pressure yet was firing very well at the end. Leonard will be quite ok.

Quote:
I never claimed a whitewash anywhere. Of course Leonard will win rounds, there is nothing sudden in this. My position again - Robinson would not lose. Robinson would never be in real danger. Robinson would win the fight by late stoppage, taking over almost completely down the back straight.
I can't see a stoppage, and nor can i see Robinson "taking over almost completely down the back straight". Again i take solace in the Duran fight, nobody is putting on more heat.

Quote:
I stand by it, see no reason to change it based upon the fact that Leoanrd might wins some rounds early by my addmission.
You'd better give me your other 10 in the top 12 then so i can dig much deeper. Finding one from that many fighters that Robinson will defeat easier will be absolute chicken feed to be honest.

Quote:
That's just a summary of the first part of the fight. Leonard can win rounds whilst spending more stamina than his opponent (As you know) Leonard can also win rounds despite the fact that he is the lesser puncher (As you know).
I'm going up against your comment Leonard will be Robinson's easiest win out of the top 12. I believe many will not even win this many rounds all fight, IF they survive this long at all. It's a big big call from you.

Quote:
And even in your version he is still taking many more steps than Robinson, who has better stamina. And I have to be honest with you John, here I don't see your version as realistic.
No worries, i don't see all the other 10 doing better than Leonard as very realistic either.

Quote:
Robinson is by far the better puncher (than Leonard). As a composite puncher I rate him in the class above Hagler.
He's easily better than Hagler, but given this is at 147 and Ray is not blown up or past it it's not going to remotely resemble this fight.

Quote:
He loses though. His best chance for victory is to stand and trade, I guess, hope for the punch. He loses though.
His best chance of winning is lateral movement with the odd flurry hoping to lead this fight. He might also happen to hurt Robinson, it's been done before. Both slim pickings, but the only pickings really. He's gotta float and trade at the right times, with variety.

Quote:
But what adapations? I honestly don't understand what adaptions Leonard can make, I can't see the alternative fight plan, I can't see what in the ring adjustment will save him.
Leonard's adaptions will be variety of offense so Robinson can't time him, which of course also makes it harder for Robinson to defend against. If Leonard gets predictable he's in trouble, but he won't.

Again i ask how come peak Robinson didn't come close to stopping Gavilan in either fight.
JohnThomas1 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2007, 10:58 AM   #36
Holmes' Jab
Master Jabber
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 2,551
vCash: 1000
Default Re: 147 lb Tourney Final - SUGAR v SUGAR

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manassa
Ray Leonard? ,
Benny Leonard would have a better chance of beating Robinson than Ray Leonard.

Yeah- "My granny could beat Ray Leonard, with her zimmer frame and handbag"


Wise up. Nobody would have an easy night against SRL at WW (a great deal would lose), Robbo is no different. It'd be a truely fantastic fight.
Holmes' Jab is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2007, 11:02 AM   #37
Manassa
-
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: ESB since '05
Posts: 3,883
vCash: 75
Default Re: 147 lb Tourney Final - SUGAR v SUGAR

Quote:
Originally Posted by Holmes' Jab
Yeah- "My granny could beat Ray Leonard, with her zimmer frame and handbag"


Wise up. Nobody would have an easy night against SRL at WW (a great deal would lose), Robbo is no different. It'd be a truely fantastic fight.
Napoles would have the easiest night with Leonard. Or Gavilan, who was essentially a better version of Ray.
Manassa is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2007, 01:01 PM   #38
Senya13
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Russia
Posts: 3,844
vCash: 1210
Default Re: 147 lb Tourney Final - SUGAR v SUGAR

Robinson with his footspeed, handspeed (while inferior to Leonard's per se, but faster when power punching is concerned) and awkward angles of attacks (the footage of him near his prime weight and years reminds of RJJ actually), comes on top in offence, and his reflexes and counter-punching don't allow Leonard to steal enough rounds to get a decision. Most probably a KO win for Robinson though.
Senya13 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2007, 01:36 PM   #39
Nick Balsamo
Journeyman
ESB Jr Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Alma Beach
Posts: 167
vCash: 1000
Default Re: 147 lb Tourney Final - SUGAR v SUGAR

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manassa
Ray Leonard?

Benny Leonard would have a better chance of beating Robinson than Ray Leonard.
What happened to you buddy ? You seem completely lost...

Last edited by M.DeFer; 09-21-2006 at 08:34 PM.
Nick Balsamo is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2007, 01:40 PM   #40
Manassa
-
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: ESB since '05
Posts: 3,883
vCash: 75
Default Re: 147 lb Tourney Final - SUGAR v SUGAR

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Balsamo
What happened to you buddy ? You seem completely lost...
I woke up. Why don't you...
Manassa is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2007, 01:45 PM   #41
McGrain
Diamond Dog
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 37,182
vCash: 1000
Default Re: 147 lb Tourney Final - SUGAR v SUGAR

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manassa
I woke up. Why don't you...


Did you know that's a line from Predator?
McGrain is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2007, 01:46 PM   #42
Manassa
-
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: ESB since '05
Posts: 3,883
vCash: 75
Default Re: 147 lb Tourney Final - SUGAR v SUGAR

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain


Did you know that's a line from Predator?
Affirmative. I'll be back, I just need to hasta la pizza.
Manassa is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2007, 02:08 PM   #43
McGrain
Diamond Dog
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 37,182
vCash: 1000
Default Re: 147 lb Tourney Final - SUGAR v SUGAR

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnThomas1
Moving laterally is not the same as running.
I know that - nor did I say it was. I said that whey I am in the ring I find swift re-cutting (my term I think - changing direction quickly, changing any plans very quickly, allowing for the super-fast box puncher coming the other way, in this insance) and suggested that for these top athletes, although it also won't be as bad as re-cutting (TM) it will be very tiring when carried out against a fighter with such excellent footwork.

Quote:
Why didn't Robinson stop Gavilan in either fight given that he stood his ground? Leonard's offensive arsenal is also not to be scoffed at.
Leonard's offensive arsenal is fine - it's just not good enough to keep Robinson from him. My basic position is that Leonard has to give ground in order to keep from getting a hiding - do you dispute this?

Are you quite happy with Gavlin as a foil for Leonard? He seems like a pretty static fighter to me, by comparison, as well as one tough man. Not that Leoanrd is nt tough. But he isn't a tough it fighter.


Quote:
How could this have no relevance?
John, you're a top poster, so i don't mean any offense by this at all I swear. But every thread that ever gets opened where two ATG fighters are matched some joker will say, "yeah, but Louis never faced a punch like Foreman". We know that; it's rare that two ATG fighters will be matched where one doesn't exceed the other's competition in some way or another.

You've (sort of) hit the nail on the head here, with comparisons to Gavlin though. That's a lot more like sense. Although I'm not convinced, as i've said.

Quote:
It also makes Leonard quite competitive IMO.
Leonard wouldn't neccisarily be outclassed, he's an ATG fighter, arguably top 10 of all fighters ever (though I have him in the low teens, I think) - just soundly beaten by a man who does most of what he does better than him.

Quote:
leads me to think you might underrate Leonard's stamina a little. He showed superb stamina vs 3 ATG's late in their fights.
What i will do for you John - rewatch a couple of Leonard fights in the coming weeks and have a rethink on this specific area. But i'll be surprised if I see anything as impressive as what Robinson has shown (also baring in mind that we have no footage of his peak years )*.



Quote:
TBH i cannot see Leonard being any more tired than he was vs Duran, a brutal battle.
If Leonard fought the fight he fought in Duran I, I promise you bud, he wouldn't have to worry about the later rounds in the slightest.


Quote:
You'd better give me your other 10 in the top 12 then so i can dig much deeper.
Benitez, Napoles, Duran, Ted Lewis, Armstrong, Grifith, Walcott, Langford, Mickey Walker and Charley Burley.

But for Christ sake, let's leave Burley out of this, we could be here until Christmas


[quote]Leonard's adaptions will be variety of offense so Robinson can't time him, which of course also makes it harder for Robinson to defend against.[/quote[

I will agree with you that Leonard is perfectly capable of doing this in normal - or even odd - circumstances. Will you not agree with me that Robinson is one of the most exquisite timers of a man, ever?
McGrain is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2007, 03:38 PM   #44
dpw417
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 3,379
vCash: 0
Default Re: 147 lb Tourney Final - SUGAR v SUGAR

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnThomas1
Tell me how SRR beats Leonard easier than anyone else in the top 12 at 147. How do you envisage this easy win going?

Me, i see SRL blinding handspeed (faster than SRR had ever seen before) keeping him in both rounds and exchanges, i see his excellent durability and elusiveness keeping him both standing and competitive thru the length of the fight, his brilliant stamina will not see him fold and his power will keep SRR honest. His adaptability is second to none and this will see him winning some rounds and staying ever competitive. Again, even Robinson had his challenges at 147 and it is far from credible to see an immense talent like SRL pushing him hard and bringing out the best in him. Robinson doesn't have the reach and jabbing scythe that Thomas Hearns did. SRR does not have the reach on Leonard and a deep study will show this to be very integral to Leonard's competitiveness here.
I really like this assessment of 'Sugar v Sugar'. this is actually one of my favorite fantasy match-ups. Robinson's explosiveness and power win the day for him, but leonard is very close in all areas...In the power department however, I think SRR is superior....Because of th epower he displayed at middle...I don't know if Robinson would be the hardest hitting welter that SRL has faced....That distintion just might go to Hearns on a punch for punch basis. But Robinson had better explosive combinations.
I like SRR by close UD (at his very best)
dpw417 is online now  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2007, 04:26 PM   #45
McGrain
Diamond Dog
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 37,182
vCash: 1000
Default Re: 147 lb Tourney Final - SUGAR v SUGAR

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wae Petes
His power is the only thing see that he has better of than Leonard. A stoppage is HIGHLY unlikely.
Really? So your picking the technical execution of Leonard's left hook over over the technical execution of Leonard's left hook? Do you also think that Leonard is stronger and has longer reach?
McGrain is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Reply

Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump





All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:27 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Boxing News 24 Forum 2013