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View Poll Results: Who`s the sweetest welterweight ever ?
Sugar Ray Robinson 25 67.57%
Sugar Ray Leonard 12 32.43%
Voters: 37. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 11-16-2007, 04:36 PM   #46
McGrain
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Default Re: 147 lb Tourney Final - SUGAR v SUGAR

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wae Petes
When you use punches as compact as Robinson does against a mover like Leonard, I don't think reach is gonna be a big asset.
There may be something to this - but what i'm interested in now is your claim that Robinson exceeds Leonard in only one area, power.
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Old 11-16-2007, 04:40 PM   #47
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Default Re: 147 lb Tourney Final - SUGAR v SUGAR

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Originally Posted by biglads
Robinson KO11 Leonard

I think Robinson at 147 is too good. SRL will have his moments with some flashy combos, but Robinson will wear him down, bust him up and then KO him late.

Robinson goes home in the Pink Caddy, Leonard is off the the infirmary for observation.
Hey! I totally missed this guy! What a great post. Chap, you are spot on.

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Old 11-16-2007, 04:43 PM   #48
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Default Re: 147 lb Tourney Final - SUGAR v SUGAR

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Originally Posted by Wae Petes
It's nice when you're saying one thing - and your the only one saying it - to have someone else join in.

Even some newbie.
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Old 11-16-2007, 06:57 PM   #49
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Default Re: 147 lb Tourney Final - SUGAR v SUGAR

[quote=McGrain]I know that - nor did I say it was. I said that whey I am in the ring I find swift re-cutting (my term I think - changing direction quickly, changing any plans very quickly, allowing for the super-fast box puncher coming the other way, in this insance) and suggested that for these top athletes, although it also won't be as bad as re-cutting (TM) it will be very tiring when carried out against a fighter with such excellent footwork.



Leonard's offensive arsenal is fine - it's just not good enough to keep Robinson from him. My basic position is that Leonard has to give ground in order to keep from getting a hiding - do you dispute this?

Are you quite happy with Gavlin as a foil for Leonard? He seems like a pretty static fighter to me, by comparison, as well as one tough man. Not that Leoanrd is nt tough. But he isn't a tough it fighter.




John, you're a top poster, so i don't mean any offense by this at all I swear. But every thread that ever gets opened where two ATG fighters are matched some joker will say, "yeah, but Louis never faced a punch like Foreman". We know that; it's rare that two ATG fighters will be matched where one doesn't exceed the other's competition in some way or another.

You've (sort of) hit the nail on the head here, with comparisons to Gavlin though. That's a lot more like sense. Although I'm not convinced, as i've said.



Leonard wouldn't neccisarily be outclassed, he's an ATG fighter, arguably top 10 of all fighters ever (though I have him in the low teens, I think) - just soundly beaten by a man who does most of what he does better than him.



What i will do for you John - rewatch a couple of Leonard fights in the coming weeks and have a rethink on this specific area. But i'll be surprised if I see anything as impressive as what Robinson has shown (also baring in mind that we have no footage of his peak years )*.





If Leonard fought the fight he fought in Duran I, I promise you bud, he wouldn't have to worry about the later rounds in the slightest.




Benitez, Napoles, Duran, Ted Lewis, Armstrong, Grifith, Walcott, Langford, Mickey Walker and Charley Burley.

But for Christ sake, let's leave Burley out of this, we could be here until Christmas


Quote:
Leonard's adaptions will be variety of offense so Robinson can't time him, which of course also makes it harder for Robinson to defend against.[/quote[

I will agree with you that Leonard is perfectly capable of doing this in normal - or even odd - circumstances. Will you not agree with me that Robinson is one of the most exquisite timers of a man, ever?
Hey thanks for the debate. I appreciate the time and thought you have put in mate. I am a massive fan of SRR and agree with many of your assessments of him, after all he is the greatest of the greatest. As close to the perfect fighter as we will ever see many very knowledgable obserbers have said. Guys that saw him at his 147 greatest.

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Old 11-16-2007, 06:58 PM   #50
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Default Re: 147 lb Tourney Final - SUGAR v SUGAR

Quote:
Originally Posted by dpw417
I really like this assessment of 'Sugar v Sugar'. this is actually one of my favorite fantasy match-ups. Robinson's explosiveness and power win the day for him, but leonard is very close in all areas...In the power department however, I think SRR is superior....Because of th epower he displayed at middle...I don't know if Robinson would be the hardest hitting welter that SRL has faced....That distintion just might go to Hearns on a punch for punch basis. But Robinson had better explosive combinations.
I like SRR by close UD (at his very best)
Thanks mate, and i agree with SRR carrying his power much better, grew into a massive hitting 160 actually.
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Old 11-17-2007, 08:12 AM   #51
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Default Re: 147 lb Tourney Final - SUGAR v SUGAR

One man stands a chance at beating sugar ray robinson - the 1980 montreal roberto duran who beat the other ray that wood rock! Or at a catch weight 140lbs duran a 135lb monster vs ray rob when ray was coming up to 147. If that duran don't win just 4get it Pal! MAD - MIKE -
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Old 11-18-2007, 06:30 AM   #52
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Default Re: 147 lb Tourney Final - SUGAR v SUGAR

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manassa
Napoles would have the easiest night with Leonard.
Leonard just whipped napoles ass in the semi-final in order to meet robinson.

The majority side with srl on that one.

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Old 11-18-2007, 06:44 AM   #53
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Default Re: 147 lb Tourney Final - SUGAR v SUGAR

Oh, I forgot to say cheers for all the posts (far more than I expected) & since the poll is just about to close with robinson a clear enough winner on the poll, its time to move on to the MWTs (also look out for the congrats thread for SRR winning the welter-wt tournament.)
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Old 11-18-2007, 06:48 AM   #54
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Default Re: 147 lb Tourney Final - SUGAR v SUGAR

So what's the semi line up at 160? Robinson, Hopkins, Monzon and maybe Hagler?
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Old 11-18-2007, 04:54 PM   #55
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Default Re: 147 lb Tourney Final - SUGAR v SUGAR

Leonard for all intensive purposes isnt much faster than Robinson. Watch the actual power punches he throws against Hearns and then watch the ones Robinson throws against Lamotta. If u take in count the weight difference I really can't see much of a handspeed difference at all. I feel Robinson is too much offensively for Leonard and unlike most I think he wins a fairly lopsided decision. I actually see Duran Robinson being a more interesting matchup based on styles althought i still rate Leonard much higher as a welterweight but I just feel that Robinson is just a slightly better version of Leonard in most areas.
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Old 11-18-2007, 11:03 PM   #56
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Default Re: 147 lb Tourney Final - SUGAR v SUGAR

Quote:
Originally Posted by Holmes' Jab
All factors taken into consideration: Robinson holds the ever so slight edge, however I think SRL might just beat him in a head-to-head contest. Also he's the most complete package of any WW I've ever seen.


I'll put the cat amongst the pigeons and vote for Leonard.
****in crazy!
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Old 11-19-2007, 12:05 AM   #57
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Default Re: 147 lb Tourney Final - SUGAR v SUGAR

McGrain you were right to hold your ground. Let's not forget the problems leonard had with Thomas hearns. Didn't look so formidable in that one, behind to a guy with 3 measely defenses employing a simple stick and move strategy.

Let's not forget the Kevin Howard fight that made leonard lose his appetite for fist for entire three years. And he totally didn't know what he was doing in the Norris fight. What do you think Robinson would do to leonard? He crush his spirit then he'd crush leonard.
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Old 11-19-2007, 02:37 AM   #58
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Default Re: 147 lb Tourney Final - SUGAR v SUGAR

I'll post a little dream fight article if i get the inspiration or interest.

So who think's it's not beyond the realm that Leonard is actually a little stronger than SRR?
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Old 11-19-2007, 04:42 AM   #59
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Default Re: 147 lb Tourney Final - SUGAR v SUGAR

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnThomas1
I'll post a little dream fight article if i get the inspiration or interest.

So who think's it's not beyond the realm that Leonard is actually a little stronger than SRR?
Somebody please respond to this and hurry
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Old 11-19-2007, 04:53 AM   #60
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Default Re: 147 lb Tourney Final - SUGAR v SUGAR

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Butcher
Well, suprise suprise, we have the dream match to settle all dream matches, probably the 2 greatest welter-wts who ever lived, both called sugar ray.

Opinions will vary on this 1 as neither have ever lost at this weight & quite often both looked unbeatable at the weight but who comes out on top, robinson or leonard.
One stole the name, the other invented it, any questions?
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