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Old 02-19-2011, 01:45 PM   #31
burt bienstock
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Default Re: What made joe Frazier special?

I can answer the question two ways..
1-I saw Frazier whip Ali in 1971 MSG. A bulldog that night, A heavier Henry Armstrong
in action. The high-water mark of Frazier's career.Went down-hill from that fight on..
But,what made him so tough ?
a little sidenote-Fairly early in his career, I went to see Frazier train at a Sullivan Mountain Hotel. For which fight I can't recall. I was alone,sitting in the first row of the ring,waiting
for Frazier and his sparring partners to enter the gym.Well Joe Frazier walked in alone and
sat down maybe 6-8 feet away and started to tape his own hands. Not a word was said as I was in awe of him. God did he look ominous as hell ! I said to myself,"am I happy I am not fighting him". Soon Yankn Durham and sparring partners entered the gym and the action started. Just to see him a few feet away,taping his hands answered the question of
"what made prime Frazier great ? A throwback to the old days, fight til you drop...Were I not a coward ,I would have said, "hya Joe, I saw you in the Olympics final against Buster
Mathis in 1964, Flushing NY." But Frazier lost a close decision to Mathis,and he wouldn't have liked me to bring it up,I think. Omerta,is best sometimes...
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Old 02-19-2011, 02:05 PM   #32
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Default Re: What made joe Frazier special?

Burt,,,,,

Could have been in Kiamesha Lake (Sullivan County), near Monticello.

'Smokin Joe' was the 'blue collar' fighter. A favorite of all the construction crews,
and especially the cement workers, who likened Joe to a 'brick layer'.

Joe was an easy guy to like,,,,,,,,and he never criticized his opponents fans.
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Old 02-19-2011, 02:17 PM   #33
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Default Re: What made joe Frazier special?

Speed of pressure.
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Old 02-19-2011, 02:56 PM   #34
Il Duce
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Default Re: What made joe Frazier special?

The first,,,,,,'Vision Quest',,,,,,,, boxer.

Also,,,,,clearly a straight line fighter,,,,,,,,the shortest distance between 'two points'.

Round 11,,,,,,,,,,,,,Frazier vs. Ali I

Last edited by Il Duce; 02-19-2011 at 03:23 PM.
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Old 02-19-2011, 04:34 PM   #35
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Default Re: What made joe Frazier special?

Quote:
Originally Posted by burt bienstock View Post
I can answer the question two ways..
1-I saw Frazier whip Ali in 1971 MSG. A bulldog that night, A heavier Henry Armstrong
in action. The high-water mark of Frazier's career.Went down-hill from that fight on..
But,what made him so tough ?
a little sidenote-Fairly early in his career, I went to see Frazier train at a Sullivan Mountain Hotel. For which fight I can't recall. I was alone,sitting in the first row of the ring,waiting
for Frazier and his sparring partners to enter the gym.Well Joe Frazier walked in alone and
sat down maybe 6-8 feet away and started to tape his own hands. Not a word was said as I was in awe of him. God did he look ominous as hell ! I said to myself,"am I happy I am not fighting him". Soon Yankn Durham and sparring partners entered the gym and the action started. Just to see him a few feet away,taping his hands answered the question of
"what made prime Frazier great ? A throwback to the old days, fight til you drop...Were I not a coward ,I would have said, "hya Joe, I saw you in the Olympics final against Buster
Mathis in 1964, Flushing NY." But Frazier lost a close decision to Mathis,and he wouldn't have liked me to bring it up,I think. Omerta,is best sometimes...


BB I met Joe Frazier at a party in Atlantic City, Holmes was there as were many heavyweight but the most impressive and imposing was Joe Frazier 5"11 but wide with a thick neck ...he went after Holmes after Holmes insulted his son but Larry shouted "not you Joe " oddly the other imposing heavyweight I met was Jersey Joe Walcott thick shoulders, arms neck and head...Also Jack Dempsey was a scary man in person...I have met many of the top heavyweights...Cooney,Lyle,Ali,Quarry,Mac Foster,Holmes, and Frazier,Dempsey and Walcott stick out as men you would have to shoot, not fight.
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Old 02-19-2011, 04:44 PM   #36
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Default Re: What made joe Frazier special?

Imposing Champions;

Jack Dempsey, 1960's,,,,the man was solid at 220 lbs.

Jersey Joe Walcott, 1960's,,,bigger than you'd expect, possibly 235+ lbs.
and bigger than Sonny Liston.

Rocky Marciano, 1960's,,, a little too thick at 225+ lbs. , but massive forearms
and solid shoulders.
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Old 02-19-2011, 04:55 PM   #37
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Default Re: What made joe Frazier special?

After Bonavena I, Jimmy Cannon likened his work ethic to that of Marciano's, while commenting presciently that he didn't quite have the chin to support that style. Cannon lived to see that observation to fruition when Joe lost the title.

Beyond what has already been mentioned, his hand speed was a solid natural attribute, and he retained a vestige of that speed even against Cummings.

Smoke is fond of pointing out that he, like Foreman, was a pure heavyweight from the get go. He first walked into a boxing gym to lose weight, because at 240 to 250 pounds, he was having difficulty fitting his legs into his pants. (In a swimsuit during the 1973 Superstars competition prior to the heat where he nearly drowned, you can see how thick and stumpy his thighs are even then, after well over a decade of boxing competition. Incidentally, he mounts the platform ten seconds before the other three champions in his heat despite being introduced last, suggestive of his characteristic hustle.)

Foreman was and is a genetic freak of nature in the physical strength department, and Chuvalo was really into building up his body from an early age. But yard bird bodybuilder Jumbo Cummings did not physically overpower Smoke in December 1981, and neither did Quarry, who possessed excellent functional strength. Bonavena was also known for his strength, but the best he could do was neutralize Joe in the clinches, and he was giving ground to a tiring Frazier as their rematch drew to a close. Son Marvis is an advocate of weight training for boxers, but Smoke has noted this and disagreed with it in print, accompanied by the comment that he was plenty strong in the ring. Delete Foreman and Chuvalo from a review of his competition footage, and what remains bears this out.
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Old 02-19-2011, 05:09 PM   #38
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Default Re: What made joe Frazier special?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Il Duce View Post
Imposing Champions;

Jack Dempsey, 1960's,,,,the man was solid at 220 lbs.

Jersey Joe Walcott, 1960's,,,bigger than you'd expect, possibly 235+ lbs.
and bigger than Sonny Liston.

Rocky Marciano, 1960's,,, a little too thick at 225+ lbs. , but massive forearms
and solid shoulders.
Rocky was always just a very solidly built person in general. Thick legs, thick arms, and big hands.

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Old 02-19-2011, 05:15 PM   #39
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Default Re: What made joe Frazier special?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lobotomy View Post
After Bonavena I, Jimmy Cannon likened his work ethic to that of Marciano's, while commenting presciently that he didn't quite have the chin to support that style. Cannon lived to see that observation to fruition when Joe lost the title.

Beyond what has already been mentioned, his hand speed was a solid natural attribute, and he retained a vestige of that speed even against Cummings.

Smoke is fond of pointing out that he, like Foreman, was a pure heavyweight from the get go. He first walked into a boxing gym to lose weight, because at 240 to 250 pounds, he was having difficulty fitting his legs into his pants. (In a swimsuit during the 1973 Superstars competition prior to the heat where he nearly drowned, you can see how thick and stumpy his thighs are even then, after well over a decade of boxing competition. Incidentally, he mounts the platform ten seconds before the other three champions in his heat despite being introduced last, suggestive of his characteristic hustle.)

Foreman was and is a genetic freak of nature in the physical strength department, and Chuvalo was really into building up his body from an early age. But yard bird bodybuilder Jumbo Cummings did not physically overpower Smoke in December 1981, and neither did Quarry, who possessed excellent functional strength. Bonavena was also known for his strength, but the best he could do was neutralize Joe in the clinches, and he was giving ground to a tiring Frazier as their rematch drew to a close. Son Marvis is an advocate of weight training for boxers, but Smoke has noted this and disagreed with it in print, accompanied by the comment that he was plenty strong in the ring. Delete Foreman and Chuvalo from a review of his competition footage, and what remains bears this out.
At one point in the Frazier-Chuvallo fight, Joe tried walk Chuvalo backwards, clearly put effort into trying to move the iron chinned Chuvalo. George simply stood there and did not budge an inch.

When Chuvalo fought Foreman, it is very possible that it was the 2 strongest ever heavyweights fighting eachother.
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Old 02-19-2011, 05:15 PM   #40
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Quote:
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Imposing Champions;

Jack Dempsey, 1960's,,,,the man was solid at 220 lbs.
Of course you're very well familiar with the photograph of his 75th birthday bash in his autobiography standing next to Frazier, with Carpentier and Tunney on the other side. Carp is definitely a far slighter man than the others, while an aged Jack and Gene look more than an inch or two taller than Joe.
Quote:
Jersey Joe Walcott, 1960's,,,bigger than you'd expect, possibly 235+ lbs.
and bigger than Sonny Liston.
He certainly doesn't look dwarfed by Liston in the Lewiston footage, does he?
Quote:
Rocky Marciano, 1960's,,, a little too thick at 225+ lbs. , but massive forearms
and solid shoulders.
Had he come along a few decades earlier, he might have served as the inspiration for Popeye. (As it is, maybe Popeye inspired him. Rocky was five years old when that character was introduced in the Thimble Theatre comic strip, nine when the Fleischer brothers adapted him to cartoons.) He made himself look pretty respectable for Woroner's film.
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Old 02-19-2011, 05:17 PM   #41
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Default Re: What made joe Frazier special?

Rocky, definitely a 1950's Fullback,,,,,,,5' 10" 185 lbs.
An early version of Larry Csonka,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,4 yards, and a pile of dust.
And running the football filed at Grossingers Hotel....

Anybody know Smokin Joe's first nickname, when he was a 230 lb. blubberball.
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Old 02-19-2011, 05:52 PM   #42
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Default Re: What made joe Frazier special?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lobotomy View Post
After Bonavena I, Jimmy Cannon likened his work ethic to that of Marciano's, while commenting presciently that he didn't quite have the chin to support that style. Cannon lived to see that observation to fruition when Joe lost the title.

Beyond what has already been mentioned, his hand speed was a solid natural attribute, and he retained a vestige of that speed even against Cummings.

Smoke is fond of pointing out that he, like Foreman, was a pure heavyweight from the get go. He first walked into a boxing gym to lose weight, because at 240 to 250 pounds, he was having difficulty fitting his legs into his pants. (In a swimsuit during the 1973 Superstars competition prior to the heat where he nearly drowned, you can see how thick and stumpy his thighs are even then, after well over a decade of boxing competition. Incidentally, he mounts the platform ten seconds before the other three champions in his heat despite being introduced last, suggestive of his characteristic hustle.)

Foreman was and is a genetic freak of nature in the physical strength department, and Chuvalo was really into building up his body from an early age. But yard bird bodybuilder Jumbo Cummings did not physically overpower Smoke in December 1981, and neither did Quarry, who possessed excellent functional strength. Bonavena was also known for his strength, but the best he could do was neutralize Joe in the clinches, and he was giving ground to a tiring Frazier as their rematch drew to a close. Son Marvis is an advocate of weight training for boxers, but Smoke has noted this and disagreed with it in print, accompanied by the comment that he was plenty strong in the ring. Delete Foreman and Chuvalo from a review of his competition footage, and what remains bears this out.
Great post.

I would love a reference to this article if you have it.
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Old 02-19-2011, 06:04 PM   #43
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Rocky, definitely a 1950's Fullback,,,,,,,5' 10" 185 lbs.
An early version of Larry Csonka,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,4 yards, and a pile of dust.
And running the football filed at Grossingers Hotel....
Of course you well know he wasn't a fullback, or ball carrier in any capacity when he played, aside from snapping it to the QB. (I don't know what he weighed in high school, but it could well have been significantly more than 185.) Being the strongest kid on the block got him the position a coach would deem him most suited for.

For those of you not aware, at Brockton High he was a center on the gridiron, and a catcher in baseball. He expressed the belief in interviews that playing these positions had a role in his slowness of foot in the ring. Baseball was his primary athletic aspiration before taking up boxing.
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Old 02-19-2011, 06:05 PM   #44
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BB I met Joe Frazier at a party in Atlantic City, Holmes was there as were many heavyweight but the most impressive and imposing was Joe Frazier 5"11 but wide with a thick neck ...he went after Holmes after Holmes insulted his son but Larry shouted "not you Joe " oddly the other imposing heavyweight I met was Jersey Joe Walcott thick shoulders, arms neck and head...Also Jack Dempsey was a scary man in person...I have met many of the top heavyweights...Cooney,Lyle,Ali,Quarry,Mac Foster,Holmes, and Frazier,Dempsey and Walcott stick out as men you would have to shoot, not fight.
I met many myself and the two most over powering presences were Ry Mercer and David Tua .. both were absolute tanks and radiated power ...
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Old 02-19-2011, 06:13 PM   #45
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Of course you well know he wasn't a fullback, or ball carrier in any capacity when he played, aside from snapping it to the QB. (I don't know what he weighed in high school, but it could well have been significantly more than 185.) Being the strongest kid on the block got him the position a coach would deem him most suited for.

For those of you not aware, at Brockton High he was a center on the gridiron, and a catcher in baseball. He expressed the belief in interviews that playing these positions had a role in his slowness of foot in the ring. Baseball was his primary athletic aspiration before taking up boxing.
I did not know that.
He was probably a good blocking center,,,,,,,I would bet.
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