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Old 02-20-2011, 10:39 AM   #1
withoutwire
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Default Quick question about Ali-Frazier fights

Frazier won the first, and Ali then next two.

What enabled Ali to turn it around for the next two?

Was he better conditioned, did he box differently, did Frazier decline, what was it?
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Old 02-20-2011, 10:44 AM   #2
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Default Re: Quick question about Ali-Frazier fights

Quote:
Originally Posted by withoutwire View Post
Frazier won the first, and Ali then next two.

What enabled Ali to turn it around for the next two?

Was he better conditioned, did he box differently, did Frazier decline, what was it?
Frazier's decline helped Ali outbox Frazier much easier. After the first fight Frazier was never ever the same animal.

And I think Ali fought a different fight and ellected to stay off the ropes more often which helped him tremendously. In the third fight, he also fought inside a little bit with Frazier with uppercuts and hooks, I think this helped him too.

Ali faded much better then Frazier did. Frazier declined so horribly compared to Ali or other champs.
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Old 02-20-2011, 11:10 AM   #3
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Default Re: Quick question about Ali-Frazier fights

Ali was indeed better prepared for their middle bout, by virtue of his post FOTC activity, and the grueling rematch win in Norton II. He rushed into the FOTC ahead of an anticipated adverse SCOTUS ruling on his conscientious objector draft status. For Frazier II, he had the time and competitive work he needed to be fully locked and loaded, and came in at 212, his final bout at his peak weight.

Joe had also gone back after the FOTC. His title was gone, and having already won their first classic, he didn't have so much of a chip on his shoulder. His place in history was secure. It was Muhammad who had something to prove.

By Manila, arthritis and high blood pressure were taking a dreadful toll on Frazier's body, and his swarming style was not an approach which lent itself to longevity anyways. If Ali had any idea what he was in for, he wouldn't have come as heavy as he did. (The morning of that fight, Cosell noted Ali's paunch, but a relaxed Muhammad cheerfully dismissed it.) Ali certainly had intel from Ellis that Joe was no longer what he once was, and Frazier-Ellis II has been reviewed by a number of posters here. What saw Ali through here was sheer toughness, a resistance to the facial damage which ultimately saw Futch withhold a blinded Smoke from touching gloves for the final round, and a punch rate which he may not have been capable of generating during the 1960s. (Carlos Padilla would not allow him to yank on Frazier's neck, repeatedly slapping off his gloves, forcing him to punch his way to the win.)

While Ali did not train as hard for Manila as he should have, and came in at too high a weight to have any chance at an easier win, his 1975 campaign kept him sharp and extended his stamina. He also collapsed at the end of Wepner, but avenged a referee ruled knockdown with a furious sustained championship round assault which culminated in an exhausted Chuck finally dropping and being stopped with 19 seconds left. He outlasted Lyle, then outworked Bugner in the blast furnace of Kuala Lumpur with Frazier commenting from ringside. Since Ali II, Joe's only action had been Quarry II and Ellis II. He trained hard for Manila, and expressed to reporters after his career longest eight week camp that he thought he was in the best shape he could manage. But Muhammad's recent competitive late round activity prevailed over Smoke's diligent training.

Last edited by Lobotomy; 02-20-2011 at 11:25 AM.
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Old 02-20-2011, 11:40 AM   #4
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Default Re: Quick question about Ali-Frazier fights

Joe Frazier dropped off.
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Old 02-20-2011, 11:46 AM   #5
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Default Re: Quick question about Ali-Frazier fights

Frazier walked through hell to win the FOTC, his physical-prime was literally beaten out of him.

Plus he lost most of his motivation & dedication after his greatest triumph.
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Old 02-20-2011, 11:51 AM   #6
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Default Re: Quick question about Ali-Frazier fights

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Originally Posted by Lobotomy View Post

By Manila, arthritis and high blood pressure were taking a dreadful toll on Frazier's body
really ?
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Old 02-20-2011, 11:54 AM   #7
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Default Re: Quick question about Ali-Frazier fights

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Originally Posted by doug.ie View Post
really ?
His doctor is clear that blood-pressure problems were bothering him by the time of III, what happened before that is up for debate, although he was very, very ill after I, and high blood-pressure seems to have been the issue, in part.

Arthritis, yeah, he struggled with that from a stupidly early age. Frazier was actually struggling the night of I - he claims he would have called off for anyone other than "the Butterfly", but with Ali in the other corner he decided to go ahead.

High blood pressure can be controlled by medication.
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Old 02-20-2011, 11:56 AM   #8
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Default Re: Quick question about Ali-Frazier fights

March 1971,

'The Fight of the Century'

Scorecards;

Arthur Mercante;
A,,A,,F,,F,,F.....A,,A,,F,,F,,A.....F,,E,,F,,A,,F......8-6-1 (Frazier)

Artie Aidala;
A,,A,,F,,F,,F.....F,,F,,F,,A,,A.....F,,F,,A,,A,,F......9-6-0 (Frazier)

Bill Recht;
F,,A,,F,,F,,A.....F,,F,,F,,A,,F.....F,,F,,F,,A,,F......11-4-0 (Frazier)

The early 'Smokin Joe' required 2 rouds to warm-up, to get into that bob-n-weave
rhythm. His strength were Rounds 3 thru 11. After that, he was a one-punch left hook
brawler. Very predictable.

In the FOTC, you could see Ali was trying to hurt Joe early, and he used up alot of early
energy in Rounds 1 and 2. Then in Round 4, the first 2-minutes, Ali burnt himself out,
as Joe used unrelentless pressure to force Ali to fight.

Joe took over, in Round 3, and the last minute of Round 4 and controlled Rounds thru 5 thru 8.
Energy-sapping pressure is what won it for Joe.

Actually, Muhammad had Round 4 won,,,,,he landed a bunch of good hard shots throughout the
first 2-minutes, and he had the round in the bag. But Joe stole it, by landing '3' crushing left hooks, especially
one with 30-seconds to go, which shook Ali. That punch stole the round, and took the confidence away from him.
Ali had to go back to his corner shaking his head, thinking. "I just hit this guy with my best shots ever, and I
can't keep him off me.'

Joe just didn't have that in Fights 2 and 3. Oh, he could punch, but he wasn't the same guy in 72' and on.

Last edited by Il Duce; 02-20-2011 at 12:14 PM.
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Old 02-20-2011, 12:35 PM   #9
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Default Re: Quick question about Ali-Frazier fights

Ali-Frazier II: Ali was still as good as in 1971, but better prepared, whereas Frazier had declined some (but not as much as many like to suggest). The 12 rds limit and Perez also made it easier for him to implement a move-flurry-hold tactic.

Ali-Frazier III: Both had declined, but Ali fought smarter than in FOTC, paced himself better in the early rounds to have more left down the stretch, and Frazier's eye closed (which it didn't in FOTC). That's why Ali closed more strongly during the last third, whereas Frazier had done so in FOTC.
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Old 02-20-2011, 12:36 PM   #10
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Default Re: Quick question about Ali-Frazier fights

Frazier was also completely one-eyed after Ali I.
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Old 02-20-2011, 12:47 PM   #11
Bokaj
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Default Re: Quick question about Ali-Frazier fights

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
Frazier was also completely one-eyed after Ali I.
That would mean that he either went completely blind when his eye closed in Manilla or that it didn't really make any difference. He didn't go completely blind and it did make a difference since he (like he told Futch) no longer could see Ali's rights.
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Old 02-20-2011, 12:48 PM   #12
McGrain
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Default Re: Quick question about Ali-Frazier fights

Or...can't have been easy.
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Old 02-20-2011, 01:10 PM   #13
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Default Re: Quick question about Ali-Frazier fights

Smokin' Joe contracted every disease known to many just before he started losing.Not only did it slow him down,but it also greatly diminished his once incredible punch resistance.He was completely blind in both eyes,deaf in one year,and he also had an artificial pacemaker put in just to keep him going.


Still,he had all the top contenders running away from in in 1972.Only Terry Daniels and Ron Stander were willing to step up and challenge for the title.By all accounts,Geogre Foreman was terrified of him - and,if you look closely,you may even spot a runny brown substance running down the back of Foreman's right leg as he was staring Frazier in the eye's.
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Old 02-20-2011, 01:15 PM   #14
Il Duce
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Default Re: Quick question about Ali-Frazier fights

Both Joe Frazier and Muhammad Ali shared $2,500,000 apiece for the 1971 FOTC.

1972
Terry Daniels,,,,,,,$35,000
Ron Stander,,,,,,,,$42,631 (plus $7500 training expenses)

'Smokin Joe' and Knockouts,,Musical Revue
$7500 per week,,,,,,,two shows nightly.
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Old 02-20-2011, 01:18 PM   #15
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Default Re: Quick question about Ali-Frazier fights

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bokaj View Post
Ali-Frazier II: Ali was still as good as in 1971, but better prepared, whereas Frazier had declined some (but not as much as many like to suggest). The 12 rds limit and Perez also made it easier for him to implement a move-flurry-hold tactic.

Ali-Frazier III: Both had declined, but Ali fought smarter than in FOTC, paced himself better in the early rounds to have more left down the stretch, and Frazier's eye closed (which it didn't in FOTC). That's why Ali closed more strongly during the last third, whereas Frazier had done so in FOTC.
THIS PRETTY MUCH COVERS IT
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