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Old 02-20-2011, 06:50 PM   #16
Mendoza
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Default Re: If Jeffries defeated Johnson....

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Originally Posted by Boucher View Post
Temperature, learn how to spell..
Keep embracing that hate.



"I am coming back to redeem the honour of the white race"
And no one even remembers you today ,you big white supremist chump.
Sure, I'll check my spelling every now than then, but teaching you how to add and embracing the facts will be difficult.

Please show me where it was 110 degrees in April in Havana. PM's have been sent. You can come out of your closet now, Mcvey.
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Old 02-20-2011, 07:24 PM   #17
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Default Re: If Jeffries defeated Johnson....

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Originally Posted by cross_trainer View Post
Jeffries would be remembered much more venomously. He would be a white supremacist who came out of retirement specifically to destroy the first black heavyweight champion. Since Johnson wouldn't have stayed on top long enough to generate the controversy that he did, Jeff would look even worse by comparison. He would be "great" in a historical sense, but that greatness would always carry a big asterisk for moral failings.

When the '60s rolled around, people who hated Ali would point to Jeffries as the "true" greatest of all time. Ali, for his part, would probably criticize Jeffries heavily. Jeffries would become the focal point for racism in boxing, on both sides of the divide.

Ironic fate for an uncommunicative alfalfa farmer, eh?

Exactly the answer I was leaning towards, but could not have said it better myself.
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Old 02-21-2011, 04:09 AM   #18
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Default Re: If Jeffries defeated Johnson....

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Originally Posted by Mendoza View Post
Sure, I'll check my spelling every now than then, but teaching you how to add and embracing the facts will be difficult.

Please show me where it was 110 degrees in April in Havana. PM's have been sent. You can come out of your closet now, Mcvey.
McVey? I am not McVey. Closet? Is he gay?
I have no objection to you, or, anyone else correcting me when I am wrong, [Jeffries was 35] .It would be churlish to deny you it, especially as you obviously derived so much pleasure from it.
NB I have put a correction in my earlier post ,and credited you with spotting it.

Last edited by Boucher; 02-21-2011 at 05:36 AM.
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Old 02-21-2011, 05:51 AM   #19
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Default Re: If Jeffries defeated Johnson....

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Originally Posted by Mendoza View Post
Sure, I'll check my spelling every now than then, but teaching you how to add and embracing the facts will be difficult.

Please show me where it was 110 degrees in April in Havana. PM's have been sent. You can come out of your closet now, Mcvey.
The Boxing Register gives the temperature as 105 degrees


Here is the link.

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

Below is from Cyberzone.

In the meantime, Willard was cast in a 1-reel short film, "The Heart Punch". It was made in late 1914, but not released until February of 1915. As the record already shows it, Willard beat Johnson in 26 rounds of a scheduled 45-round bout, in simmering 100 degree plus humid temperatures of Havana.






This is from Boxing Biographies

The- fight lasted one hour and 44 minutes in weather well over 100 degrees. It was not until five years later — and Willard always stressed this point — that Johnson, broke, and-old, -and living in Paris, sold a magazine article in which he claimed he took a dive at. Havana.
"I always said," Willard remarked, "if; he was going to quit, -why did he wait 26 rounds, one-hour and, 44 minutes, under a sun that was 115 degrees hot, to quit . "Or wait five years to say he took a dive."

The Chicago Daily Observer
. It was a brutally hot day with the temperature exceeding one hundred degrees.



You can come out of the toilet now Mendoza.

Last edited by Boucher; 02-21-2011 at 01:35 PM.
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Old 02-21-2011, 06:04 AM   #20
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Default Re: If Jeffries defeated Johnson....

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Originally Posted by cross_trainer View Post
Jeffries would be remembered much more venomously. He would be a white supremacist who came out of retirement specifically to destroy the first black heavyweight champion. Since Johnson wouldn't have stayed on top long enough to generate the controversy that he did, Jeff would look even worse by comparison. He would be "great" in a historical sense, but that greatness would always carry a big asterisk for moral failings.

When the '60s rolled around, people who hated Ali would point to Jeffries as the "true" greatest of all time. Ali, for his part, would probably criticize Jeffries heavily. Jeffries would become the focal point for racism in boxing, on both sides of the divide.

Ironic fate for an uncommunicative alfalfa farmer, eh?
Good point.

Look at the amount of vitriol thrown at Rocky Marciano, esentialy for being a white undefeated heavyweight champion, even though he did not draw the colour line and was always respectful towards his black oponents.
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Old 02-21-2011, 06:33 AM   #21
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Default Re: If Jeffries defeated Johnson....

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The most interesting upshot is that Mendoza has to spend all his time building Johnson up as a great champ. Which is hysterical.
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Old 02-21-2011, 06:58 AM   #22
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Default Re: If Jeffries defeated Johnson....

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Originally Posted by janitor View Post
Good point.

Look at the amount of vitriol thrown at Rocky Marciano, esentialy for being a white undefeated heavyweight champion, even though he did not draw the colour line and was always respectful towards his black oponents.
To my knowledge Marciano never called any of his black opponents, n****r.

Never said he was fighting for the honour of the white race,

Never had another world champion,[Ketchel ]thrown out bodily from his training camp for going to see that n****r.

Never refused to shake a black opponents hand ,or acknowledge him in public.

Never ducked his standout challenger because he was black.


Never made a statement that he would not risk his title against a blackman ,lest the title should fall into the hands of a member of the black race.

Of course, Marciano never made an absurd excuse that he was beaten by "drugged tea," either because he never came back.


Marciano was close friends with both Walcott and Charles after their fights and was allways highly complimentary when speaking about them .
In short, he was a gentleman , sportsman, and a decent human being .
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Old 02-21-2011, 07:20 AM   #23
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Default Re: If Jeffries defeated Johnson....

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Originally Posted by Boucher View Post
To my knowledge Marciano never called any of his black opponents, n****r.

Never said he was fighting for the honour of the white race,

Never had another world champion,[Ketchel ]thrown out bodily from his training camp for going to see that n****r.

Never refused to shake a black opponents hand ,or acknowledge him in public.

Never ducked his standout challenger because he was black.


Never made a statement that he would not risk his title against a blackman ,lest the title should fall into the hands of a member of the black race.

Of course, Marciano never made an absurd excuse that he was beaten by "drugged tea," either because he never came back.


Marciano was close friends with both Walcott and Charles after their fights and was allways highly complimentary when speaking about them .
In short, he was a gentleman , sportsman, and a decent human being .
Exactly, so you wouldn't think that he would offend so many people.
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Old 02-21-2011, 08:18 AM   #24
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Default Re: If Jeffries defeated Johnson....

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Exactly, so you wouldn't think that he would offend so many people.
Ring magazines of the 50's reveal that Marciano was unfavourably compared to Dempsey ,and considered a poor imitation of him,.
Marciano was seen as a strong, but crude bruiser,without any real ring smarts.
TIme usuallly brings fresh,and often different viewpoints.
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Old 02-21-2011, 09:48 AM   #25
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Default Re: If Jeffries defeated Johnson....

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Originally Posted by cross_trainer View Post
Jeffries would be remembered much more venomously. He would be a white supremacist who came out of retirement specifically to destroy the first black heavyweight champion.
He would be a lot more famous, that is for sure. But then again rightly so, it would have probably been the single greatest victory in the history of the sport, imo.



Quote:
Since Johnson wouldn't have stayed on top long enough to generate the controversy that he did, Jeff would look even worse by comparison.
Why wouldnt he stay on top for long. He followed jeffries with about 1 loss in 15 or so years. If jeffries won, Johnson would still be the World Champion, because Jeffries would have retired, and the title generally reverts back to Johnson. And without having proved himself, Johnson would have probably stayed in shape, and not been hated so badly (meaning he wouldnt be chased out of the US). If you look at how Johnson improved after the Choynski loss, and then the hart loss, it is scary to think just what he might have done to prove he was the best in the world. I am guessing that Langford, McVey and Jeanette would have had serious dents put in their legacies. Probably Wills Also, as an in shape albeit older Johnson probably blasts him. Imagine how many title defences an active and fully trained Johnson would have . And the flipside, is that Jim Jeffries would have bettered him. I think this would equate Jeffries easily to what Louis and Ali did. In fact better because he would have that undefeated aura to him.

[quote]
He would be "great" in a historical sense, but that greatness would always carry a big asterisk for moral failings.
[/quotel]
Sorry, but this is absolute garbage. What are these moral failings you talk of? he was always respectful to coloured fighters and he always fought coloured fighters. A few throwaway lines to market and hype a fight mean nothing. I am sure that every other heavy champ alive said a few choice words to a few people. Big Deal.
Quote:

When the '60s rolled around, people who hated Ali would point to Jeffries as the "true" greatest of all time. Ali, for his part, would probably criticize Jeffries heavily. Jeffries would become the focal point for racism in boxing, on both sides of the divide.

Ironic fate for an uncommunicative alfalfa farmer, eh?
Maybe, but i dont see it. By beating Johnson, ironically, it would have opened up chances for other coloured fighters to win a world championship. Langford and McVey fought for an alphabet title already. It would have more recognition, and both would garner more support than Johnson. And the supremists would feel less worried about the need to beat the couloured fighters because Jeffries had proved superiority. By the time Wills/Dempsey emerged and was not held back by politics and the fears of supremist whites, this would actually be seen as a long awaited super fight between the best two fighters in the world. With all this happening, it is possible that a Jeffries win might just have seen the end of the colour line.

Ironic fate for the champion of the white supremists.
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Old 02-21-2011, 10:00 AM   #26
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Default Re: If Jeffries defeated Johnson....

[quote=Boilermaker;8965207]He would be a lot more famous, that is for sure. But then again rightly so, it would have probably been the single greatest victory in the history of the sport, imo.




Why wouldnt he stay on top for long. He followed jeffries with about 1 loss in 15 or so years. If jeffries won, Johnson would still be the World Champion, because Jeffries would have retired, and the title generally reverts back to Johnson. And without having proved himself, Johnson would have probably stayed in shape, and not been hated so badly (meaning he wouldnt be chased out of the US). If you look at how Johnson improved after the Choynski loss, and then the hart loss, it is scary to think just what he might have done to prove he was the best in the world. I am guessing that Langford, McVey and Jeanette would have had serious dents put in their legacies. Probably Wills Also, as an in shape albeit older Johnson probably blasts him. Imagine how many title defences an active and fully trained Johnson would have . And the flipside, is that Jim Jeffries would have bettered him. I think this would equate Jeffries easily to what Louis and Ali did. In fact better because he would have that undefeated aura to him.

Quote:
He would be "great" in a historical sense, but that greatness would always carry a big asterisk for moral failings.
[/quotel]
Sorry, but this is absolute garbage. What are these moral failings you talk of? he was always respectful to coloured fighters and he always fought coloured fighters. A few throwaway lines to market and hype a fight mean nothing. I am sure that every other heavy champ alive said a few choice words to a few people. Big Deal.


Maybe, but i dont see it. By beating Johnson, ironically, it would have opened up chances for other coloured fighters to win a world championship. Langford and McVey fought for an alphabet title already. It would have more recognition, and both would garner more support than Johnson. And the supremists would feel less worried about the need to beat the couloured fighters because Jeffries had proved superiority. By the time Wills/Dempsey emerged and was not held back by politics and the fears of supremist whites, this would actually be seen as a long awaited super fight between the best two fighters in the world. With all this happening, it is possible that a Jeffries win might just have seen the end of the colour line.

Ironic fate for the champion of the white supremists.
If Jeffries had beaten Johnson in Reno ,I would have to make a personal case for considering him for the number one spot.
At least close to Ali if not on a par.How he would have been perceived by the public over the years, I cannot begin to guess.As it was, he was not particularly popular after his retirement, respected but not liked, during his reign,and largely forgotten after it.

Last edited by Boucher; 02-21-2011 at 12:46 PM.
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Old 02-21-2011, 11:09 AM   #27
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Default Re: If Jeffries defeated Johnson....

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Originally Posted by Boilermaker View Post
He would be a lot more famous, that is for sure. But then again rightly so, it would have probably been the single greatest victory in the history of the sport, imo.
Well, probably third-greatest. Ali - Frazier and Schmeling - Louis were better.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Boilermaker View Post
Why wouldnt he stay on top for long. He followed jeffries with about 1 loss in 15 or so years. If jeffries won, Johnson would still be the World Champion, because Jeffries would have retired, and the title generally reverts back to Johnson. And without having proved himself, Johnson would have probably stayed in shape, and not been hated so badly (meaning he wouldnt be chased out of the US). If you look at how Johnson improved after the Choynski loss, and then the hart loss, it is scary to think just what he might have done to prove he was the best in the world. I am guessing that Langford, McVey and Jeanette would have had serious dents put in their legacies. Probably Wills Also, as an in shape albeit older Johnson probably blasts him. Imagine how many title defences an active and fully trained Johnson would have . And the flipside, is that Jim Jeffries would have bettered him. I think this would equate Jeffries easily to what Louis and Ali did. In fact better because he would have that undefeated aura to him.
You're assuming that Jeffries wouldn't pull the same thing he did the last time he retired -- i.e. organizing a fight between the two leading white contenders. Johnson would have had trouble getting another shot at the title without a cash-strapped champion like Burns.

Also, Langford, McVey, or Jeanette might get the shot instead.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boilermaker View Post

Sorry, but this is absolute garbage. What are these moral failings you talk of? he was always respectful to coloured fighters and he always fought coloured fighters. A few throwaway lines to market and hype a fight mean nothing. I am sure that every other heavy champ alive said a few choice words to a few people. Big Deal.
He would be perceived as having moral failings because of the highly symbolic nature of defeating Johnson after the massive racist buildup. Whether he actually had them I'll leave up to others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boilermaker View Post
Maybe, but i dont see it. By beating Johnson, ironically, it would have opened up chances for other coloured fighters to win a world championship. Langford and McVey fought for an alphabet title already. It would have more recognition, and both would garner more support than Johnson. And the supremists would feel less worried about the need to beat the couloured fighters because Jeffries had proved superiority. By the time Wills/Dempsey emerged and was not held back by politics and the fears of supremist whites, this would actually be seen as a long awaited super fight between the best two fighters in the world. With all this happening, it is possible that a Jeffries win might just have seen the end of the colour line.

Ironic fate for the champion of the white supremists.
Not a bad point, actually.
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Old 02-21-2011, 08:06 PM   #28
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Default Re: If Jeffries defeated Johnson....

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Originally Posted by Boucher View Post
The Boxing Register gives the temperature as 105 degrees


Here is the link.

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

Below is from Cyberzone.

In the meantime, Willard was cast in a 1-reel short film, "The Heart Punch". It was made in late 1914, but not released until February of 1915. As the record already shows it, Willard beat Johnson in 26 rounds of a scheduled 45-round bout, in simmering 100 degree plus humid temperatures of Havana.






This is from Boxing Biographies

The- fight lasted one hour and 44 minutes in weather well over 100 degrees. It was not until five years later — and Willard always stressed this point — that Johnson, broke, and-old, -and living in Paris, sold a magazine article in which he claimed he took a dive at. Havana.
"I always said," Willard remarked, "if; he was going to quit, -why did he wait 26 rounds, one-hour and, 44 minutes, under a sun that was 115 degrees hot, to quit . "Or wait five years to say he took a dive."

The Chicago Daily Observer
. It was a brutally hot day with the temperature exceeding one hundred degrees.



You can come out of the toilet now Mendoza.
How about a real weather report that indicated a record high. I have one here, and its below 100 degrees. Also 100 degrees in April??? Remain ignorant if you must! You are wrong again. Read Below:

Like most of the [Only registered and activated users can see links. ], Havana's has a tropical climate, which is characterized as being non-arid and having pleasant year-round average temperatures. Havana does not experience extreme heat or cold, but due to its location and climate, it is susceptible to violent storms. Other places with tropical climates are Hawaii, parts of Florida, and Southeast [Only registered and activated users can see links. ].

Temperature

The temperatures in Havana are fairly consistent for the entire. The average monthly low is 70 degrees F (21 degrees C) and the average high temperature is 85 degrees F (29 degrees C). The coolest months are January and February (64 to 79 degrees F; 18 to 26 degrees C) and the hottest months are July and August (75 to 89 degrees F; 24 to 32 degrees C). November, December and January through April is cooler than May through October. Havana's record high is 97 degrees F (36 degrees C) and the record low is 50 degrees F (10 degrees C).

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
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Old 02-21-2011, 08:57 PM   #29
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Default Re: If Jeffries defeated Johnson....

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Originally Posted by cross_trainer View Post
Jeffries would be remembered much more venomously. He would be a white supremacist who came out of retirement specifically to destroy the first black heavyweight champion. Since Johnson wouldn't have stayed on top long enough to generate the controversy that he did, Jeff would look even worse by comparison. He would be "great" in a historical sense, but that greatness would always carry a big asterisk for moral failings.

When the '60s rolled around, people who hated Ali would point to Jeffries as the "true" greatest of all time. Ali, for his part, would probably criticize Jeffries heavily. Jeffries would become the focal point for racism in boxing, on both sides of the divide.

Ironic fate for an uncommunicative alfalfa farmer, eh?

I disagree.
I think that's a simplistic view of people of the past and their relationship to racial rivalry and the injustices and hatred of the "race issue" in general.

I don't think anyone would hate Jeffries or make him a villain simply because he won the fight.
At the time the fight was bound to cause riots whoever won (as happened), but with the passing of time the victor is only remembered for his own performance, not blamed for the stuipdity of people who use the fight to demonstrate racial hatred.

If anything Jeffries would have been more respected and rated as a fighter among black community because he beat the best black fighter around. Just as Marciano seemed to gain respect from blacks for his victories over many of the best black fighters.

Winners usually get respect, especially if their win is a come back win over a good prime fighter.
The stupid racial stuff surrounding the fight is so obviously nothing to do with the sporting contest of two men, that there's no way Jeffries would become a focal point for racism in boxing. People weren't that stupid.
Ali never had a heated "racial" contest in the 1960s, although he later tried to manufacture one with .... Joe Frazier. Ali saying he's greater than Jeffries is like him saying he's greater than Joe Louis. I think people got used to that before he'd even fought Liston !

Well, that's my take anyway.
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Old 02-21-2011, 08:57 PM   #30
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Default Re: If Jeffries defeated Johnson....

What was the question,,,,,,,if James Jeffries defeated Jack Johnson.

Jeffries retires, and goes back to his farm, where he wanted to stay in the first place.

Of course a heavyweight championship would take place, between 'two' white boys.

Jack Johnson would have to start all over again, with Sam Langford, Sam McVea and Joe Jeannette.
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