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Old 11-16-2007, 09:40 PM   #61
Dempsey1238
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Default Re: Is Ali untouchable as far as criticism goes??

But Marciano does get more smack than Ali though.

When people start saying super middleweights could beat the Rock. Than thats pretty bad. Thats almost like saying Tommy Burns or Harry Greb would beat Ali.

And have people all ready forgoting that Max Kellerman said that Robinson would beat Marciano, saying that Rocky WAS too slow, and Robinson too fast.?(He made that claim after Jones beat Ruiz.)
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Old 11-17-2007, 07:29 AM   #62
ChrisPontius
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Default Re: Is Ali untouchable as far as criticism goes??

Some are way too far up Ali's ass, some aren't.
Even suggesting that a guy like Lennox Lewis or Wladimir Klitschko "could" give Ali trouble because he doesn't have the stylistic traits to easily solve them, like he didn't with Norton, you're a hater, etc.

It's okay though. When Michael Jackson was a bit past his prime and heading towards self-destruction in the mid-90's, my sister always started to scream , yell and cry whenever i critised him or made jokes about him having romantic dinners with 7 year old boys.

She was a bit more mature and reasonable than some Ali fans here.


When Ali passes away (and it might happen soon), i expect him to go on an unprecented undefeated streak in mythical fights here at ESB.
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Old 11-17-2007, 09:35 AM   #63
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Default Re: Is Ali untouchable as far as criticism goes??

Davis Miller author of Tao of Muhammad Ali said that Ali made the story up of throwing the gold medal in the river. I think he just lost it. But in Champions Forever he says he did throw it in the river. But the point he was making was true. He was asked to leave a cafe/restaurant in in his own town even tho he was Olympic Champ. No wonder he later made a stand against his own country fighting in Vietnam. Can't have equal rites in their own country but they expect you to be equal on the battle field fighting against some other country. It stinks.
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Old 11-17-2007, 09:35 AM   #64
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Default Re: Is Ali untouchable as far as criticism goes??

Quote:
Originally Posted by groove
Davis Miller author of Tao of Muhammad Ali said that Ali made the story up of throwing the gold medal in the river. I think he just lost it. But in Champions Forever he says he did throw it in the river. But the point he was making was true. He was asked to leave a cafe/restaurant in in his own town even tho he was Olympic Champ. No wonder he later made a stand against his own country fighting in Vietnam. Can't have equal rites in their own country but they expect you to be equal on the battle field fighting against some other country. It stinks.


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Old 11-17-2007, 09:39 AM   #65
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Default Re: Is Ali untouchable as far as criticism goes??

Quote:
Originally Posted by groove
Davis Miller author of Tao of Muhammad Ali said that Ali made the story up of throwing the gold medal in the river. I think he just lost it. But in Champions Forever he says he did throw it in the river. But the point he was making was true. He was asked to leave a cafe/restaurant in in his own town even tho he was Olympic Champ. No wonder he later made a stand against his own country fighting in Vietnam. Can't have equal rites in their own country but they expect you to be equal on the battle field fighting against some other country. It stinks.


So he lied then. We know this now. Sad.
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Old 11-17-2007, 09:48 AM   #66
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Default Re: Is Ali untouchable as far as criticism goes??

Ali is wide open for criticism for anyone honest...

1. His glorified stance on Vietnam was disengenuous. He didn't want to die, that was his actual grand reason. Ideologues made a hero out of him because of his celebrity status and the plain fact that they were against the war. Understandable of course... however, Ali's claim to be a devout Muslim who was forbidden to go to war is nonsense. He was anything but devout at this time of his life and his adulterous affairs demonstrate it.

2. He had a cruel streak. A vicious one. He had tendencies to promote the intra-race bias against darker skinned African Americans. Calling Joe Frazier an Uncle Tom and a gorilla is beyond classless.

3. He was a darling of too many referees who gave him assists in the 70s with his extra-legal allowances in the ring.

4. His style can be criticized rather easily.

5. He was naive enough to get roped into the Nation of Islam which was a bastardized, racist version of true Islam.
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Old 11-17-2007, 09:52 AM   #67
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Default Re: Is Ali untouchable as far as criticism goes??

He was a bit silly, too.
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Old 11-17-2007, 09:52 AM   #68
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Default Re: Is Ali untouchable as far as criticism goes??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stonehands89
Ali is wide open for criticism for anyone honest...

1. His glorified stance on Vietnam was disengenuous. He didn't want to die, that was his actual grand reason. Ideologues made a hero out of him because of his celebrity status and the plain fact that they were against the war. Understandable of course... however, Ali's claim to be a devout Muslim who was forbidden to go to war is nonsense. He was anything but devout at this time of his life and his adulterous affairs demonstrate it.

2. He had a cruel streak. A vicious one. He had tendencies to promote the intra-race bias against darker skinned African Americans. Calling Joe Frazier an Uncle Tom and a gorilla is beyond classless.

3. He was a darling of too many referees who gave him assists in the 70s with his extra-legal allowances in the ring.

4. His style can be criticized rather easily.

5. He was naive enough to get roped into the Nation of Islam which was a bastardized, racist version of true Islam.

I completely agree.
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Old 11-17-2007, 10:27 AM   #69
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Default Re: Is Ali untouchable as far as criticism goes??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stonehands89
Ali is wide open for criticism for anyone honest...

1. His glorified stance on Vietnam was disengenuous. He didn't want to die, that was his actual grand reason. Ideologues made a hero out of him because of his celebrity status and the plain fact that they were against the war. Understandable of course... however, Ali's claim to be a devout Muslim who was forbidden to go to war is nonsense. He was anything but devout at this time of his life and his adulterous affairs demonstrate it.

2. He had a cruel streak. A vicious one. He had tendencies to promote the intra-race bias against darker skinned African Americans. Calling Joe Frazier an Uncle Tom and a gorilla is beyond classless.

3. He was a darling of too many referees who gave him assists in the 70s with his extra-legal allowances in the ring.

4. His style can be criticized rather easily.

5. He was naive enough to get roped into the Nation of Islam which was a bastardized, racist version of true Islam.

This is right I think. He isn't bulletproof. He was a great fighter, but I think it's a little much for any fighter to have a book named after him called "The Tao Of...." he's become too mythical.
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Old 11-17-2007, 11:02 AM   #70
ChrisPontius
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Default Re: Is Ali untouchable as far as criticism goes??

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain
He was a bit silly, too.
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Old 11-17-2007, 11:26 AM   #71
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Default Re: Is Ali untouchable as far as criticism goes??

Criticism is all fine and dandy but to say the 70's was not a Golden Era for the division is taking things a bit too far. ATG Larry Holmes pulled out a split decision in round 15 from 34 year old Ken Norton in 1978. It was an ATG heavyweight fight. Norton was hardly the best fighter from the era: KO'd early in his career, KO'd by Foreman, KO'd by Shavers right after Holmes, but credit to Kenny he did give Ali Hell for 3 fights. Then there was Frazier, the underrated Jimmy Young, and on and on.
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Old 11-17-2007, 12:09 PM   #72
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Default Re: Is Ali untouchable as far as criticism goes??

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisPontius
When Ali passes away (and it might happen soon)
IMO he has about 5-7 years left on this Earth. And when he does kick off...can you imagine how much Ali ESPNCLASSICS will show? Of course they will leave out 7 fights. The first one with Frazier, the first and last one with Norton (the 3rd one will show the gift decision), the one with Young (another one that will show he got lucky on the cards), and the ones with Holmes and Berbick (understandably).
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Old 11-17-2007, 12:14 PM   #73
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Default Re: Is Ali untouchable as far as criticism goes??

Quote:
Originally Posted by hellfire_508
And for the record, everyone knows you don't like Ali.
Damn him. The nerve of him for not liking the all mighty Ali. He should be banned for not liking him.
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Old 11-17-2007, 02:12 PM   #74
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Default Re: Is Ali untouchable as far as criticism goes??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill1234
Damn him. The nerve of him for not liking the all mighty Ali. He should be banned for not liking him.


AT LAST!!!! An actual post where you haven't mentioned Larry Holmes. Party time!!!!


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Old 11-17-2007, 04:19 PM   #75
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Default Re: Is Ali untouchable as far as criticism goes??

Quote:
Originally Posted by My dinner with Conteh
AT LAST!!!! An actual post where you haven't mentioned Larry Holmes. Party time!!!!


Ive done it before. I mentioned Hagler with out Larry once.
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