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Old 03-02-2011, 07:18 AM   #31
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano, the undefeated champion..

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Originally Posted by Bill1234 View Post
And Ali sparred with an old Marciano and from that brief sparring session, Rocky made a huge impression on him. Marciano is the only person Ali never bad mouthed and never 100% picked himself to beat Marciano.
Might have had something to do with Rocky's death soon after
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Old 03-02-2011, 08:09 AM   #32
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano, the undefeated champion..

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I dont think this is true at all. In fact, the very best very rarely if ever lose, until they get old or slacken off. Certainly, once they hit prime they never do...
You have a point, of course, many great fighters DON'T lose until they hit the skids. However there are plenty of great fighters who lost either on the way up or near their prime. Half the guys you mentioned still lost before they got old, whatever the reason. I don't think it makes that much difference to their legacy.

Off the top of my head I'm thinking Duran, Leonard, Hearns, Hagler, B Hop, Pac, Gatti, Ward, - i'm sure there are more.

Of todays crop Donaire and Khan have both lost and it isn't holding them back at all.
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Old 03-02-2011, 08:48 AM   #33
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano, the undefeated champion..

Gatti and Ward great fighters?
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Old 03-02-2011, 08:53 AM   #34
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Default "Ooh, he hit hard. He hit you so hard it'd jar your kinfolks in Africa."

I think the Rock is being sold a little short, here. Ali had a tremendous amount of respect for him, and wasn't sure if he could beat him. Certainly he was sure that if he did win it would have to be on points.

BORKED

"I truly think he was better than Joe Frazier. You know what Joe Frazier did to me."
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Old 03-02-2011, 08:54 AM   #35
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano, the undefeated champion..

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Gatti and Ward great fighters?
OK Gatti and Ward were not "great."

But they still lost early on and went on to fight at top level. (Where they lost some more, I know.)

My point is still valid. Undefeated is over rated.
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Old 03-02-2011, 09:23 AM   #36
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano, the undefeated champion..

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OK Gatti and Ward were not "great."

But they still lost early on and went on to fight at top level. (Where they lost some more, I know.)

My point is still valid. Undefeated is over rated.
Totally depends on the situation. When it comes to someone like Ottke it is. When it comes to someone like Marciano, who is 6(5KO)-0 against atgs, it is not.
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Old 03-02-2011, 10:00 AM   #37
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano, the undefeated champion..

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Rocky could probably have beaten any heavyweight champion before a prime Joe Louis came along, with the exception of Jack Johnson.
To me this is pure fantasy. Maybe I'd understand if Rocky was a really advanced fighter or something, and had an incredible skillset or something else. But he doesn't. He's a crude swarmer/slugger hybrid who got decked by old, ring-worn versions of smaller heavyweights. He's less than 200 at his peak, has great stamina and great power, as well as will to win. How does he do in a 25+ round fight out in the sun with guys like Jeffries or Johnson tying him up and imposing their size and clinch/inside fighting on his own. Do you really believe he is stronger than both? How does he do in a slugfest with Dempsey, who absolutely annihilated anyone who came forward to meet him in a hitting match and has a clear speed edge, as well as similar or better power? How does he do against Fitzsimmons or Langford, both of whom annihilated guys with tons of poundage on Marciano and who came willingly into their attack range? If he was put down by Moore and others how do you think he would handle the murderous punches of those two?

I'm not saying Rocky isn't great on his own merits. But to say he beats every HW that came before him is just silly, to be honest. Considering his resume, physical stats, and skillset.
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Old 03-02-2011, 11:12 AM   #38
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano, the undefeated champion..

Personaly I rank him #3 behind Louis at #1 and Ali at #2.
Marciano has a lot going for him most importantly is his 49-0 record. If that was so easy to do why has no one done it? He has underrated boxing skills and beat quility oppoents.
What works against him is that other heavyweights have better resumes. Walcott, Charles and More were great boxers when he fought them but they were on the downside of their careers. While his boxing skills are underrated there are heavyweights with better boxing skills.
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Old 03-02-2011, 11:32 AM   #39
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano, the undefeated champion..

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Ah, well, I think Marciano is a hard one to put into perspective. People look at his record, at his size and at his resume and critizise it. Saying he would have never wnt 49-0 in another era, he would be too small and that his best opponents were all past it old men. While there is some truth in all of it, itīs also all wrong. At the same time.

Marciano would never have went 49-0 in another era. Yes, very likely - although I think swap him with Dempsey or Tyson in the 80s or Wlad now and it is possible. But does it matter? Can you rank a fighter on what he perhaps would have done in another era? Really? Doesnīt make it more sense to look at what a fighter did in his era and compare it to what other fighterd did in their eras? Marciano went 49-0, every one of his defences during his reign was against the number one contender bar one which was against the number two. Which other champion can say this of himself? I canīt think of one. This alone makes his resume very good. Well, if his record of 49-0 wasnīt that special why wasnīt it equalized by anyone? Holmes nearly got it but got beaten by a blown up lhw. Well, Marciano beat his "blown up lhws" up and both were much, much better hws than Spinks. Alone the fact that no other hw in any other era was able to repeat his feat of going 49-0 makes it big.

Marciano was a small hw, he could never have competed with the big hws from the 60s/70s on. Yes, very likely that he would have lost to someone like Liston, Ali, Foreman, Holmes or Lewis. But again, does it matter? Do you people rank fighters on some fantasy matches? Or do you rank them on what they actually did? Well, Marciano was small. Most of the fighters he beat were bigger than him. Marciano made an advantage out of his size. He was the hw that mastered fighting small to perfection. He made himself even smaller than he was to avoid the punches of his opponents, to make them punch down and thus taking away some of their snap and precision, making their punches longer and easier to see. I donīt see how this could lower his standing amongst the atgs. It should enhance it. When people talk about Fitz, Greb, Armstrong and so on they are astonished about their feat of beating bigger guys. When they talk about Rocky, they say he was too small to compete against bigger guys. Compare that to Lewis who was bigger than nearly all of his opponents. This is used to enhance his standing amongst the great hws. But beating up smaller fighters should actually lower it. When people talk about Monzon and Hopkins they critizise them for fighting smaller fighters. But with Lewis it enhances his status. Double standards.

Marcianoīs best opponents were all past their best and old. Thatīs although true to an extent. It was discussed over and over alrady on here. Aside of Louis all of them put on a superb performance against Marciano the first time they fought. Walcott and Charles were as good as they ever were at hw despite age. And Moore put on a great effort, knocking the champ down before getting grinded down and came of the best streak of his career. Remember Louis was ranked above Marciano when they fought and came of a serious winning streak, including a KO over Walcott. So, why is Marciano getting sh*t for taking care of business? Why do people look at the age of his opponents instead of looking at the actual fights and circumstances of those fights? Not even talking that Marciano wasnīt really a young champ himself. Compare that to Holmes who only rarely (less than Marciano at least) getīs sh*t for struggling more with older (and worse) fighters like Norton or Shavers or young, inexperienced ones like Witherspoon. Why is that? Or what about Lewis? His best wins are over older, past their prime opponents like Holyfield or Tyson. I donīt see people critizising this very often - apart from some Tyson fans. Why is that?

I think when it comes to Marciano people just tend to see only negatives everywhere. Why is that? Iīm not a fan of Rocky. But you got to recognize that what he did was special, that he is amongst the greatest hws ever. Personally, I only rate Ali, Louis and Jack Johnson above him. And I think he deserves very much to rank there.
This is the best post I have ever read on the subject.
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Old 03-02-2011, 11:34 AM   #40
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano, the undefeated champion..

It is pretty obvious that Rocky wasn't the best heavyweight, but he has to go down
as the 'Greatest' overall.

Leaving the game undefeated, something no one else has accomplished.

It's more than what you do in the ring, it's also knowing when to leave, as your skills diminish, and you don't embarrass yourself.

Smart enough, not to be tempted by money.
Very few in that category.
Rocky Marciano
Joe Dimaggio
Sandy Koufax
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Old 03-02-2011, 11:40 AM   #41
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano, the undefeated champion..

I rate ali and joe louis above marciano- I have to because they did so much more. The best any other heavyweight can do is match marciano, I honestly cannot rate anyone aside from louis or ali higher than marciano. it wasnt just the undefeated tag, it was the perfect reign against the best out there AND cleaning them out.
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Old 03-02-2011, 11:53 AM   #42
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano, the undefeated champion..

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Originally Posted by Swarmer View Post
To me this is pure fantasy. Maybe I'd understand if Rocky was a really advanced fighter or something, and had an incredible skillset or something else. But he doesn't. He's a crude swarmer/slugger hybrid who got decked by old, ring-worn versions of smaller heavyweights. He's less than 200 at his peak, has great stamina and great power, as well as will to win. How does he do in a 25+ round fight out in the sun with guys like Jeffries or Johnson tying him up and imposing their size and clinch/inside fighting on his own. Do you really believe he is stronger than both? How does he do in a slugfest with Dempsey, who absolutely annihilated anyone who came forward to meet him in a hitting match and has a clear speed edge, as well as similar or better power? How does he do against Fitzsimmons or Langford, both of whom annihilated guys with tons of poundage on Marciano and who came willingly into their attack range? If he was put down by Moore and others how do you think he would handle the murderous punches of those two?

I'm not saying Rocky isn't great on his own merits. But to say he beats every HW that came before him is just silly, to be honest. Considering his resume, physical stats, and skillset.
With the exception of Joe Louis,and Jack Johnson,how many heavyweights can you see beating Marciano before Sonny Liston came along ? I don't rate Marciano in my all time top 10,because most of the champions that came along after him would beat him,imo. Patterson,Johannson,Spinks bros would lose to him,but people like Ali,Liston,Frazier,Foreman,Holmes etc would. Even Tyson,Holyfield and Lewis would. But I can see Rocky beating the likes of Dempsey,Tunney,Braddock etc.
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Old 03-02-2011, 12:08 PM   #43
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano, the undefeated champion..

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Originally Posted by Stevie G View Post
With the exception of Joe Louis,and Jack Johnson,how many heavyweights can you see beating Marciano before Sonny Liston came along ? I don't rate Marciano in my all time top 10,because most of the champions that came along after him would beat him,imo. Patterson,Johannson,Spinks bros would lose to him,but people like Ali,Liston,Frazier,Foreman,Holmes etc would. Even Tyson,Holyfield and Lewis would. But I can see Rocky beating the likes of Dempsey,Tunney,Braddock etc.
Over the fifteen round distance, Dempsey, Langford, Fitzsimmons could knock him out. MAYBE Baer could get lucky and land a booming right. He would overwhelm Schmeling, Corbett, Sharkey, and Braddock IMO, although maybe Corbett could get on his best bike and win it over a short distance. If you extend the distance to 20+ rounds Jeffries might be able to just wear him down, using his size and his own incredible stamina and strength.

I also contend that younger/fresher versions of Charles and Walcott could have won. Look at how close Walcott came to begin with.
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Old 03-02-2011, 12:14 PM   #44
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano, the undefeated champion..

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Originally Posted by Swarmer View Post
Over the fifteen round distance, Dempsey, Langford, Fitzsimmons could knock him out. MAYBE Baer could get lucky and land a booming right. He would overwhelm Schmeling, Corbett, Sharkey, and Braddock IMO, although maybe Corbett could get on his best bike and win it over a short distance. If you extend the distance to 20+ rounds Jeffries might be able to just wear him down, using his size and his own incredible stamina and strength.

I also contend that younger/fresher versions of Charles and Walcott could have won. Look at how close Walcott came to begin with.
I agree with you about Charles and Walcott.
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Old 03-02-2011, 12:34 PM   #45
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano, the undefeated champion..

Some damn good thoughtful arguments on this thread. For those that dismiss Rocky, wish you'd had the benefit of seeing him live, from ringside.

He was the Little Engine That Could.
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