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Old 03-02-2011, 05:19 PM   #61
Beatle
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano, the undefeated champion..

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Originally Posted by boxingmemories View Post
Marciano is the only undefeated heavyweight champion but he is not considered the no 1 champion of all time. Can anybody tell me why?
Paradoxically, it's because he never lost.

Let me explain. Ali is "the greatest" because he beat great fighters like Ken Norton and Joe Frazier. Why is Ken Norton great? Because he beat Ali, of course! And why is Joe Frazier great? Because he schooled Ali, almost shutting him out of a 15-round fight.

So Ali is "the greatest" because he lost two fights while still in his prime (age 29 and 30).

Marciano's opponents are considered inferior to Ali's opponents because they never beat Marciano. That's the reason Marciano will never be seen as what he really was, namely the most difficult heavyweight to beat (of all time), and therefore the best.

You'll see a lot of lunatics put Ezzard Charles on their top 5 or top 10 pound-for-pound lists, but then they say he wasn't as good an opponent as Joe Frazier or George Foreman. Remember, Ezzard was 33 years old when he fought Marciano twice.

Also, Archie Moore was 39 but he was the reigning LHW champion of the world when he fought Marciano. And Walcott was 38 but was the HW champion.

Of course, Ali gets a free pass for fighting Moore when he was 46 (!).

Marciano would have refused to fight a 46 year-old shot grandpa.

Think with your own head, and don't be fooled by the "greatest" nickname Ali gave himself. They can repeat it a million times, but it won't change the fact that Ali was getting schooled by Cooper when he won via a lucky cut, and was given a 15-round boxing lesson by Joe Frazier.

If you want to see how Marciano would fight a slick operator like Ali, watch his fights against Roland LaStarza and Harry "Kid" Matthews. Two brutal KOs of fast-footed clever boxers.
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Old 03-02-2011, 08:58 PM   #62
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano, the undefeated champion..

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To me this is pure fantasy. Maybe I'd understand if Rocky was a really advanced fighter or something, and had an incredible skillset or something else. But he doesn't. He's a crude swarmer/slugger hybrid who got decked by old, ring-worn versions of smaller heavyweights. He's less than 200 at his peak, has great stamina and great power, as well as will to win. How does he do in a 25+ round fight out in the sun with guys like Jeffries or Johnson tying him up and imposing their size and clinch/inside fighting on his own. Do you really believe he is stronger than both? How does he do in a slugfest with Dempsey, who absolutely annihilated anyone who came forward to meet him in a hitting match and has a clear speed edge, as well as similar or better power? How does he do against Fitzsimmons or Langford, both of whom annihilated guys with tons of poundage on Marciano and who came willingly into their attack range? If he was put down by Moore and others how do you think he would handle the murderous punches of those two?

I'm not saying Rocky isn't great on his own merits. But to say he beats every HW that came before him is just silly, to be honest. Considering his resume, physical stats, and skillset.
Well said S. I have only to add this-
I loved Rocky Marciano .Saw him annihilate Carmine Vingo @ MSG in 1949.Saw him train at Grossinger's in Sullivan County.Sitting a few feet away from the ring Rocky looked like a powerhouse even when he landed on his sparring partners arms. Thud, thud, thud...Tremendously strong ,was he.
Having said this, you bring up Jack Dempsey in your post. When Rocky was champion, the logical question amongst the boxing fraternity was to compare Marciano with Jack Dempsey,and Joe Louis in their primes...
Virtually every boxing writer and trainer who saw Dempsey in his prime,
picked Dempsey to ko the much, much slower punching Marciano. VIRTUALLY
unanimous in their choosing the prime ,faster two handed Dempsey to ko the
more vulnerable Marciano...Were all these experts,who saw Dempsey not too
long before, suffering from mass dementia, or were they correct in their choice of Dempsey over Marciano.? No brawler in history would have outtoughed the prime Jack Dempsey,because he COMBINED raw speed in his
body movements,with unmatched two handed power, in the trenches. You might outbox and outun young Dempsey, but you couldn't outfight him, and that's what the much slower Marciano, could never do..
To match Marciano with the Joe Louis of the Max Baer fight, would be cruel to Rocky. Louis hit twice as fast as Marciano, and observe what Louis did to a much bigger Max Baer in 1935. And no one who Louis can hit survives.
I loved Marciano,none tougher than he, but SPEED KILLS,combined with
power,and Dempsey and Louis would have stopped Marciano as most ALL of the boxing fraternity in the 1950s, believed.
And so do I...
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Old 03-02-2011, 10:05 PM   #63
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano, the undefeated champion..

A bit overrated, but a tough ****ing man, and I can't remember too many fights he was in that weren't a ton of fun to watch.
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Old 03-02-2011, 10:07 PM   #64
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano, the undefeated champion..

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ali was being humble... please... if ali ali had wanted to fight seriously he would hurt badly old marciano... please... marciano had the pressure style to give ali problems but it was because his style, not because he was marciano...
Why would Ali choose to be humble about Marciano and not all of the other greats Ali talked trash about?
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Old 03-02-2011, 10:09 PM   #65
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano, the undefeated champion..

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Might have had something to do with Rocky's death soon after
I don't think so. He did a thing with Howard Cosell about how he would do against the other greats nearly a decade after Marciano's death, and Marciano was the only one who Ali was not sure of the outcome in.

The fact that Ali didn't immediately say "I would've whipped him" speaks tons about the amount of respect he had for Marciano as a fighter.
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Old 03-02-2011, 10:14 PM   #66
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano, the undefeated champion..

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Well said S. I have only to add this-
I loved Rocky Marciano .Saw him annihilate Carmine Vingo @ MSG in 1949.Saw him train at Grossinger's in Sullivan County.Sitting a few feet away from the ring Rocky looked like a powerhouse even when he landed on his sparring partners arms. Thud, thud, thud...Tremendously strong ,was he.
Having said this, you bring up Jack Dempsey in your post. When Rocky was champion, the logical question amongst the boxing fraternity was to compare Marciano with Jack Dempsey,and Joe Louis in their primes...
Virtually every boxing writer and trainer who saw Dempsey in his prime,
picked Dempsey to ko the much, much slower punching Marciano. VIRTUALLY
unanimous in their choosing the prime ,faster two handed Dempsey to ko the
more vulnerable Marciano...Were all these experts,who saw Dempsey not too
long before, suffering from mass dementia, or were they correct in their choice of Dempsey over Marciano.? No brawler in history would have outtoughed the prime Jack Dempsey,because he COMBINED raw speed in his
body movements,with unmatched two handed power, in the trenches. You might outbox and outun young Dempsey, but you couldn't outfight him, and that's what the much slower Marciano, could never do..
To match Marciano with the Joe Louis of the Max Baer fight, would be cruel to Rocky. Louis hit twice as fast as Marciano, and observe what Louis did to a much bigger Max Baer in 1935. And no one who Louis can hit survives.
I loved Marciano,none tougher than he, but SPEED KILLS,combined with
power,and Dempsey and Louis would have stopped Marciano as most ALL of the boxing fraternity in the 1950s, believed.
And so do I...
Marciano was an entirely different fighter than Max Baer, and Dempsey himself said that Marciano punched harder than he did.

Marciano would not slowly plod after Louis with little headmovement like Max Baer did. Rocky would be bobbing and weaving and quickly closing the gap and landing damaging punches to Louis.

Against Dempsey, I believe Rocky would probably get decked early, but it would quickly escalate into a back and forth brawl with Marciano's superior stamina pulling him through to victory.

Both of those match ups would be highly entertaining.
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Old 03-02-2011, 11:06 PM   #67
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano, the undefeated champion..

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Marciano was an entirely different fighter than Max Baer, and Dempsey himself said that Marciano punched harder than he did.

Marciano would not slowly plod after Louis with little headmovement like Max Baer did. Rocky would be bobbing and weaving and quickly closing the gap and landing damaging punches to Louis.

Against Dempsey, I believe Rocky would probably get decked early, but it would quickly escalate into a back and forth brawl with Marciano's superior stamina pulling him through to victory.

Both of those match ups would be highly entertaining.
Bill, true Marciano had great stamina, but he would never survive an attack from the prime Dempsey too long. Just witness the amazingly blurr like one-two, that Demsey flattened Luis Angel Firpo in the second round.Even in slow
motion you can barely detect the speed of those two punches,Dempsey tossed.Dempsey and Louis would always "get there fustess with the mostess"
against Marciano.Always.!
Why would the opinions of most every boxing scribe who saw them both at their peaks ,choose Dempsey over Marciano, truly not be more valid when
Rocky was champion, than today's opinions, SIXTY years later ? I,like to judge fighters of the past,by the opinions of those men that actually saw them
ringside...Time distorts so much of actual boxing history I believe ...Cheers...
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Old 03-02-2011, 11:34 PM   #68
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano, the undefeated champion..

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Originally Posted by thegoldenera View Post
maybe... but still... cus damato saw marciano and he said that he would have no chance against foreman or liston... and lamotta saw marciano and he said that tyson was bigger ,better and stronger...
Cus was wrong about a lot of things and did not like Marciano because there was a story about Cus being a pedophile and a lot of the Italian guys shunned him in the inside circle

I spoke to Lamotta and I also felt Tyson was headed in the direction of greatness but Tyson did not pass the test of overcoming adversity and never got off the floor to win and fizzled like a bully when in tough, therefore the muscles could do nothing for his courage or heart and when in deep, therefore leaving him highly lacking in area's that Marciano was STRONG
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Old 03-03-2011, 03:21 AM   #69
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano, the undefeated champion..

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Originally Posted by burt bienstock View Post
Bill, true Marciano had great stamina, but he would never survive an attack from the prime Dempsey too long. Just witness the amazingly blurr like one-two, that Demsey flattened Luis Angel Firpo in the second round.Even in slow
motion you can barely detect the speed of those two punches,Dempsey tossed.Dempsey and Louis would always "get there fustess with the mostess"
against Marciano.Always.!
Why would the opinions of most every boxing scribe who saw them both at their peaks ,choose Dempsey over Marciano, truly not be more valid when
Rocky was champion, than today's opinions, SIXTY years later ? I,like to judge fighters of the past,by the opinions of those men that actually saw them
ringside...Time distorts so much of actual boxing history I believe ...Cheers...
Thing is, Firpo nevertheless put Dempsey down first. If that would have been Rocky, Demüsey wouldn´t have gotten up. For me this is a 50/50 fight. Dempsey can take Marciano out in the first few rounds. If he doesn´t Marciano takes him out later on. Out of ten fights I think each happens 5 times.
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Old 03-03-2011, 03:35 AM   #70
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano, the undefeated champion..

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Originally Posted by bodhi View Post
Thing is, Firpo nevertheless put Dempsey down first. If that would have been Rocky, Demüsey wouldn´t have gotten up. For me this is a 50/50 fight. Dempsey can take Marciano out in the first few rounds. If he doesn´t Marciano takes him out later on. Out of ten fights I think each happens 5 times.
How can people say shit like that? Replace the Moore that knocked Rocky down. Would he get up from that? Dempsey and Marciano both have proven ability to recover under fire. The difference to me is that Dempsey proved a consistent ability to do it against bigger men in pure hitting matches-which is exactly what Marciano-Dempsey would be. A trench war.
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Old 03-03-2011, 03:59 AM   #71
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano, the undefeated champion..

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Originally Posted by Swarmer View Post
How can people say shit like that? Replace the Moore that knocked Rocky down. Would he get up from that? Dempsey and Marciano both have proven ability to recover under fire. The difference to me is that Dempsey proved a consistent ability to do it against bigger men in pure hitting matches-which is exactly what Marciano-Dempsey would be. A trench war.
Because the difference between Marciano and Firpo is much, much bigger than the difference between Dempsey and Moore. Dempsey and Moore are comparable as punchers, Marciano and Firpo are not.

Yes it would be a trench war. And neither ever faced an opponent like the other. Marciano never faced someone with the combination of speed, power and ferociousness that Dempsey brings to the table. And Dempsey never met someone as powerful, determined and relentless as Marciano. Thing is, Dempsey was used to fighting and taking out bigger opponents. And that´s where he was at his best. But Marciano isn´t. He´s at best as big as Dempsey. And Marciano was a master at fighting small. I wonder how Dempsey would deat with that.

I don´t back either fighter. I think it´s 50/50 and totally depends on Dempsey. Can he take out Marciano early? Yes, he can. Is he able to do it? That´s very much up for debate. If he doesn´t he won´t win.
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Old 03-03-2011, 04:36 AM   #72
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano, the undefeated champion..

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Might have had something to do with Rocky's death soon after
That didn't seem to worry the ever-classy Holmes very much.
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Old 03-03-2011, 04:41 AM   #73
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Even the most deluded classicist realizes that at his size he wouldn't have near the record a decade, two, three, four and five decades later. It was a curious historical anomaly.
I wouldn't favour anyone over him who came before him (other than maybe Joe) and not more than four or five who fought since.
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Old 03-03-2011, 05:03 AM   #74
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano, the undefeated champion..

Fighters I think can, not will, beat Marciano:
Fitz
Jeffries (fight to the finish/25 rounder)
Johnson

Langford
Dempsey
Louis
Liston

Ali
Frazier
Foreman

Holmes
Tyson
Holyfield
Bowe
Lewis

red = favs over Rocky
yellow = 50/50
bold = Rocky´s the fav
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Old 03-03-2011, 07:40 AM   #75
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano, the undefeated champion..

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Originally Posted by bodhi View Post
Fighters I think can, not will, beat Marciano:
Fitz
Jeffries (fight to the finish/25 rounder)
Johnson
Langford
Dempsey
Louis
Liston
Ali
Frazier
Foreman
Holmes
Tyson
Holyfield
Bowe
Lewis

red = favs over Rocky
yellow = 50/50
bold = Rocky´s the fav
ACTUALLY GEORGE FOREMAN IS THE ONLY FIGHTER WHO I WOULD PICK 100% AGAINST THE GEAT ROCKY, AND MAYBE I WOULD PICK LISTOn TOO, BUT GEORGE FOREMAN IS THE WoRST MATCH for ROCKY. actually i think that marciano would break lewis and holmes late. frazier would beat rocky by close sd,marciano would give the hell to ali, styles make fights, but finally ali would take a decision, ali was too fast, he had great chin and great stamina, but I don´t doubt that he was urinating blood after of the fight.
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