Angott UD10 Pep: Rate this victory, 1-10, please.

[red cobra]

Originally Posted by burt bienstock

RC, a few points to make-
1-Willie Pep seemed unbeatable before he fought Angott in 1943.For the featherweight division, I mean. The reason Willie tackled Angott and Willie Joyce ,both lightweights, were for this reason. They both couldn't punch
much harder than some featherweights. I recall those days the great Pep
wisely avoiding the likes of Ike Williams, Beau Jack,Bob Montgomery,all
vicious punching lightweights, who might have stopped Pep. Willie knew his limitations.Willie also took on lightweight Paddy DeMarco,who was a light
punching Sammy Angott type, punch, maul and hold.
Ray Robinson,like Willie tackled a light punching lightheavyweight Joey Maxim,rather taking on an Archie Moore, Ezzard Charles, Lloyd Marshall,all
who could possibly stop Robbie. So yes Pep and Robinson knew their
limitation. Wise choices on their parts...

Veeerrry interesting Burt...I guess the term "ring intelligence" also pertained to the out of the ring moves of greats like Pep and SRR...what fighters of earlier eras come to mind for you Burt..who didn't opt so prudently in choosing opponents?

[red cobra]

It may be strange, but I have a fascination with the styles of guys like Angott, Ernie Terrell, Eddie Machen, Hugo Corro and the guy in my avatar. The negative, spoiler/defensive types who frustrate the life out of their more spectacular, dynamic opponents. I suppose it's the style I would imagine myself using if I was a boxer.

[burt bienstock]

Originally Posted by red cobra

Veeerrry interesting Burt...I guess the term "ring intelligence" also pertained to the out of the ring moves of greats like Pep and SRR...what fighters of earlier eras come to mind for you Burt..who didn't opt so prudently in choosing opponents?

Very good question RC. The two greatest fighters I ever saw ringside are Ray Robinson and Willie Pep. Two alltime marvels in skill and class...
But how great these two were,they never truly went after the BEST of the
heavier divisions, as other great fighters often did. They were -
1- Harry Greb,was FEARLESS ,fought weekly ,HOF larger men,and beat them.
2-Bob Fitzimmons-was truly a middleweight who kod heavyweights all through his career,while weighing 158-65. Astounding puncher.
3-Sam Langford-a ring marvel @ beating men much larger than himself.
4-Jack Dillon [the Giant Killer],in his prime a middleweight koing heavyweights.
5- Mickey Walker- none braver ,tackled light heavies,and heavyweights as Schmeling, Sharkey, Berlenbach, Bearcat Wright,outweighed Mickey 60lbs.
6- Finally Henry Armstrong, perpetual motion,took on bigger men up to
the middleweights.
These guys had the ability and courage to tackle much larger men time and again,and WIN. A true criteria for best P4P fighter.
Others like Charley Burley, Chalky Wright Joe Walcott[the Barbados Demon]
deserve to be recognized as well...Cheers RC...

[TheGreatA]

Angott definitely had skills, on film he actually bears a resemblance to Pep at times, but I'm sure he did his share of mauling and brawling as well to gain his reputation. The win over Pep was a 10 round bout which was fairly close, Pep actually insisted to his dying day that he was robbed of his unbeaten record. Still, Angott's win resume proves that he was a difficult man for anybody to fight.

[red cobra]

Originally Posted by TheGreatA

Angott definitely had skills, on film he actually bears a resemblance to Pep at times, but I'm sure he did his share of mauling and brawling as well to gain his reputation. The win over Pep was a 10 round bout which was fairly close, Pep actually insisted to his dying day that he was robbed of his unbeaten record. Still, Angott's win resume proves that he was a difficult man for anybody to fight.

Angott was...since I first knew of his snapping off Pep's unbeaten record and looking his record up...was a smart, tough, canny fighter who's career was very impressive in it's own right. I just wish there was more footage of him...not everybody's cup 'o tea, but he's very interesting to me.

[TheGreatA]

Some of Angott against Robinson:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RcyqmnXNY-w[/ame]


Of course he was not going to look good against Robinson, but he stayed away from Sugar Ray's firepower for the most part. A smart thing to do.

[El Bujia]

The only films I've seen of Angott were against Robinson and Zivic, and from what I recall he looked quite like I'd have assumed. Then again it's been a while since I've watched them, and was admittedly looking more to analyse the footage of young Robinson than Angott. I doubt he'd have gotten away with a lot of cutie stuff against Ray, though. That would seem the sort of matchup where he'd be left with little other choice than to live up to his moniker.

Still, would be good to refresh my mind with the footage available.

[red cobra]

Originally Posted by burt bienstock

Very good question RC. The two greatest fighters I ever saw ringside are Ray Robinson and Willie Pep. Two alltime marvels in skill and class...
But how great these two were,they never truly went after the BEST of the
heavier divisions, as other great fighters often did. They were -
1- Harry Greb,was FEARLESS ,fought weekly ,HOF larger men,and beat them.
2-Bob Fitzimmons-was truly a middleweight who kod heavyweights all through his career,while weighing 158-65. Astounding puncher.
3-Sam Langford-a ring marvel @ beating men much larger than himself.
4-Jack Dillon [the Giant Killer],in his prime a middleweight koing heavyweights.
5- Mickey Walker- none braver ,tackled light heavies,and heavyweights as Schmeling, Sharkey, Berlenbach, Bearcat Wright,outweighed Mickey 60lbs.
6- Finally Henry Armstrong, perpetual motion,took on bigger men up to
the middleweights.
These guys had the ability and courage to tackle much larger men time and again,and WIN. A true criteria for best P4P fighter.
Others like Charley Burley, Chalky Wright Joe Walcott[the Barbados Demon]
deserve to be recognized as well...Cheers RC...

Yeah...your #1 guy, Greb...it's so frustrating and beyong weird thatthere's no footage of him, but if anyone rates being a legend on heresay alone...and on the accounts of his opponents, Tunney esp., and Loughran, Walker, etc., it's him..and all the other guys you mention...taking on heavyweights..just amazing..I love the classic forum because of this...your input on these matters is just priceless Burt!

[red cobra]

[quote=TheGreatA;9052850]Some of Angott against Robinson:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RcyqmnXNY-w[/ame]


Of course he was not going to look good against Robinson, but he stayed away from Sugar Ray's firepower for the most part. A smart thing to do.[/quote]
And what a smart guy Sammy was! I know he lost to Ray, but I'm so impressed by his canny ring sense in there.

[TheGreatA]

Angott was more of a spoiler than just a mauler I'd say. He was simply a difficult man to fight. He fought to the best of his ability and didn't give any openings, and obviously had no difficulties bending the rules to his favour either. Sometimes the judges gave him the nod and sometimes they didn't, but his fights were almost always close.

[Boxed Ears]

Opportunistic revamp bump.

[Vic-JofreBRASIL]

7 or 8.

[the_bigunit]

It's deserving of a 9 or 10. So I'm gonna go 10. Pep was smaller, there's no denying that. But he still weighed in at lightweight. And through the early rounds, Angott did more than just overwhelm Pep with his strength.

[LittleRed]

I think I'll make a comment and decline to rate the fight like so many are doing.


Angott had the perfect style to best Pep but boxed well enough to make it interesting, although the closeness of the fight makes it harder to rate.

[kingfisher3]

8/10 minus points for close decision and weight advantage