Dempsey & Tunney vs ATG Heavyweights

guilalah · 03-14-2011, 01:13 PM

(Prime) Jack Dempsey and Gene Tunney -- 1) Who wins a Dempsey-Tunney 15 rounder; 2) Who does better against prime versions of alltime heavyweights (15 rounds unless otherwise stated)?:

Dempsey vs Tunney
John L Sullivan (finish)
Peter Jackson (finish)
James Corbett (finish)
Bob Fitzsimmons (finish)
Jim Jeffries (25 rounds)
Jack Johnson (20 rounds)
Sam Langford (20 rounds)
Harry Wills (20 rounds)
Jack Sharkey
Max Schmeling
Max Baer
Joe Louis
'Jersey' Joe Walcott
Ezzard Charles
Rocky Marciano
Floyd Patterson
Sonny Liston
Muhammad Ali
Joe Frazier
Ken Norton
George Foreman
Larry Holmes
Mike Tyson (12 round)
Evander Holyfield (12 round)
Riddick Bowe (12 round)
Lennox Lewis (12 round)
Wladmir Klitschko (12 round)
Vitali Klitschko (12 round)

Also feel free to give your opinions regarding whether Dempsey or Tunney would do better against any other heavyweight who you believe merits being mentioned with a majority of the above cited heavyweights.

guilalah · 03-14-2011, 01:21 PM

I edited the first post to make the fights vs Tyson, Holyfield, Bowe, Lewis and the Klitschko's 12 rounders.

janitor · 03-14-2011, 06:28 PM

I suspect that Jack Dempsey would be more sucesful against the larger heavyweights (and hence a wider spectrum of heavyweights) because he has the key equalizer e.g. finishing prowess.

guilalah · 03-17-2011, 01:33 PM

Well, I guess I'd better start answering my own question, at least for a few of the match-ups.

Dempsey vs Tunney
Wow, I really don't know. Put a gun to my head, I'd say Dempsey. But I really don't know.

John L Sullivan (finish)
Tunney. Well, I should say, I go on (in this case) what I think Jack or Gene would be like if they came along in Sullivan's time and developed physically and professionally in proportion to the opportunity to develope in Sullivans time as they actually developed in their own time ... Any ways, on that basis, I think Dempsey's tendency to catch rights would put him at conciderable risk against Sullivan. Mind you, Jack generally didn't take it on the chin, and would often roll with the right and fire back a left to the body. I just think Sullivan might be wrong for Jack.
(If we're looking at Jack and Gene just as they were in 1919 or 1928, well then I think either of them would have handled an early 1880's Sullivan).

Peter Jackson (finish)
Dempsey. Tunney-Jackson would have been a great fight; I think Tunney would have gone to the body, just like Jack would have.

James Corbett (finish)
Don't know. I think Gene had a bit better chin and was a more willing puncher than The Gentleman, and Gene (like Jim at his best) was very well conditioned. Jack, maybe he wears Corbett down, or just flat KO's Jim; or maybe Jack tires as the fight progresses. Also, even if the fight goes a couple hours, I'm not sure if Corbett will have the stones to step into his punches in a way that could put either of these guys away.

Bob Fitzsimmons (finish)
Maybe Jack. I do think Gene matches up to Bob a bit better than Corbett would; Gene's a bit more resilliant. If Bob catches Dempsey coming in, it's going to hurt! Still, I give Bob a slightly better change of attritionion Gene and getting in a KO punch, than of stopping Dempsey (before Dempsey stops Bob)

Jim Jeffries (25 rounds)
Tough to say ..... OK, Dempsey. Tunney may have beaten 1900 Jeffries in 25 rounds, what with Jim's bum left and all the corner chaos; I just don't don't see Gene lasting against a more physically 100%, faster, more aggresive, more skilled Jeffries of several years later. Dempsey at least offers a chance of getting Jim out of there.

Jack Johnson (20 rounds)
I have no idea whether Dempsey or Tunney has the better chance against Johnson; Johnson and Tunney strike me as very well matched; Dempsey/Johnson has always been rather opaque to me.

Sam Langford (20 rounds)
This is another I just can't call. Dempsey-Langford would, I think, be a war -- I don't really see Jack getting Sam out quick. Tunney-Langford would probably come down to whether Sam can get to Gene's body and slow him down.

Harry Wills (20 rounds)
I'd give Dempsey the better chance. Too bad Dempsey-Wills and Tunney-Wills never came off.

Jack Sharkey
Would love to have seen Tunney-Sharkey in 1929. Anyways, I think Gene beats Sharkey; a significantly faded Dempsey did beat Sharkey, and I've never been with those who say that Sharkey was taking Dempsey to school all the way and then brain farted and got caught with a left hook. Dempsey-Sharkey was a darned grueling fight and Dempsey was getting in plenty of body work of the sort that pays off in later rounds; and Sharkey did seem to be fading a bit at the time of the stoppage. My .02$.
Maybe I give Dempsey a little better chance than Tunney, but I don't think it matters much, because I believe Gene was a bit too commanding and consistent for Sharkey.

Max Schmeling
Max Baer
Joe Louis
'Jersey' Joe Walcott
Ezzard Charles
Rocky Marciano
Floyd Patterson
Sonny Liston
Muhammad Ali
Joe Frazier
Ken Norton
George Foreman
Larry Holmes
Mike Tyson (12 round)
Evander Holyfield (12 round)
Riddick Bowe (12 round)
Lennox Lewis (12 round)
Wladmir Klitschko (12 round)
Vitali Klitschko (12 round)

View Poll Results: (Prime versions) Dempsey vs Tunney in H2H matchups
Dempsey generally better H2H, and would beat Tunney	4	33.33%
Dempsey generally better H2H, but 50/50 vs Tunney	0	0%
Dempsey generally better H2H, but looses to Tunney	2	16.67%
Tunney generally better H2H, and would beat Dempsey	3	25.00%
Tunney generally better H2h, but 50/50 vs Dempsey	0	0%
Tunney generally better H2H, but looses to Dempsey	1	8.33%
Dempsey and Tunney generally equal H2H; 50/50 vs each other	1	8.33%
Dempsey and Tunney generally equal H2H; Dempsey would beat Tunney	1	8.33%
Dempsey and Tunney generally equal H2H; Tunney would beat Dempsey	0	0%
Voters: 12. You may not vote on this poll

03-14-2011, 01:13 PM	#1
guilalah Belt holder ESB Addict Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 2,873 vCash: 1000	Dempsey & Tunney vs ATG Heavyweights (Prime) Jack Dempsey and Gene Tunney -- 1) Who wins a Dempsey-Tunney 15 rounder; 2) Who does better against prime versions of alltime heavyweights (15 rounds unless otherwise stated)?: Dempsey vs Tunney John L Sullivan (finish) Peter Jackson (finish) James Corbett (finish) Bob Fitzsimmons (finish) Jim Jeffries (25 rounds) Jack Johnson (20 rounds) Sam Langford (20 rounds) Harry Wills (20 rounds) Jack Sharkey Max Schmeling Max Baer Joe Louis 'Jersey' Joe Walcott Ezzard Charles Rocky Marciano Floyd Patterson Sonny Liston Muhammad Ali Joe Frazier Ken Norton George Foreman Larry Holmes Mike Tyson (12 round) Evander Holyfield (12 round) Riddick Bowe (12 round) Lennox Lewis (12 round) Wladmir Klitschko (12 round) Vitali Klitschko (12 round) Also feel free to give your opinions regarding whether Dempsey or Tunney would do better against any other heavyweight who you believe merits being mentioned with a majority of the above cited heavyweights.
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03-14-2011, 01:21 PM	#2
guilalah Belt holder ESB Addict Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 2,873 vCash: 1000	Re: Dempsey & Tunney vs ATG Heavyweights I edited the first post to make the fights vs Tyson, Holyfield, Bowe, Lewis and the Klitschko's 12 rounders.
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03-14-2011, 06:28 PM	#3
janitor P4P King East Side VIP Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 19,040 vCash: 1000	Re: Dempsey & Tunney vs ATG Heavyweights I suspect that Jack Dempsey would be more sucesful against the larger heavyweights (and hence a wider spectrum of heavyweights) because he has the key equalizer e.g. finishing prowess.
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03-17-2011, 01:33 PM	#4
guilalah Belt holder ESB Addict Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 2,873 vCash: 1000	Re: Dempsey & Tunney vs ATG Heavyweights Well, I guess I'd better start answering my own question, at least for a few of the match-ups. Dempsey vs Tunney Wow, I really don't know. Put a gun to my head, I'd say Dempsey. But I really don't know. John L Sullivan (finish) Tunney. Well, I should say, I go on (in this case) what I think Jack or Gene would be like if they came along in Sullivan's time and developed physically and professionally in proportion to the opportunity to develope in Sullivans time as they actually developed in their own time ... Any ways, on that basis, I think Dempsey's tendency to catch rights would put him at conciderable risk against Sullivan. Mind you, Jack generally didn't take it on the chin, and would often roll with the right and fire back a left to the body. I just think Sullivan might be wrong for Jack. (If we're looking at Jack and Gene just as they were in 1919 or 1928, well then I think either of them would have handled an early 1880's Sullivan). Peter Jackson (finish) Dempsey. Tunney-Jackson would have been a great fight; I think Tunney would have gone to the body, just like Jack would have. James Corbett (finish) Don't know. I think Gene had a bit better chin and was a more willing puncher than The Gentleman, and Gene (like Jim at his best) was very well conditioned. Jack, maybe he wears Corbett down, or just flat KO's Jim; or maybe Jack tires as the fight progresses. Also, even if the fight goes a couple hours, I'm not sure if Corbett will have the stones to step into his punches in a way that could put either of these guys away. Bob Fitzsimmons (finish) Maybe Jack. I do think Gene matches up to Bob a bit better than Corbett would; Gene's a bit more resilliant. If Bob catches Dempsey coming in, it's going to hurt! Still, I give Bob a slightly better change of attritionion Gene and getting in a KO punch, than of stopping Dempsey (before Dempsey stops Bob) Jim Jeffries (25 rounds) Tough to say ..... OK, Dempsey. Tunney may have beaten 1900 Jeffries in 25 rounds, what with Jim's bum left and all the corner chaos; I just don't don't see Gene lasting against a more physically 100%, faster, more aggresive, more skilled Jeffries of several years later. Dempsey at least offers a chance of getting Jim out of there. Jack Johnson (20 rounds) I have no idea whether Dempsey or Tunney has the better chance against Johnson; Johnson and Tunney strike me as very well matched; Dempsey/Johnson has always been rather opaque to me. Sam Langford (20 rounds) This is another I just can't call. Dempsey-Langford would, I think, be a war -- I don't really see Jack getting Sam out quick. Tunney-Langford would probably come down to whether Sam can get to Gene's body and slow him down. Harry Wills (20 rounds) I'd give Dempsey the better chance. Too bad Dempsey-Wills and Tunney-Wills never came off. Jack Sharkey Would love to have seen Tunney-Sharkey in 1929. Anyways, I think Gene beats Sharkey; a significantly faded Dempsey did beat Sharkey, and I've never been with those who say that Sharkey was taking Dempsey to school all the way and then brain farted and got caught with a left hook. Dempsey-Sharkey was a darned grueling fight and Dempsey was getting in plenty of body work of the sort that pays off in later rounds; and Sharkey did seem to be fading a bit at the time of the stoppage. My .02$. Maybe I give Dempsey a little better chance than Tunney, but I don't think it matters much, because I believe Gene was a bit too commanding and consistent for Sharkey. Max Schmeling Max Baer Joe Louis 'Jersey' Joe Walcott Ezzard Charles Rocky Marciano Floyd Patterson Sonny Liston Muhammad Ali Joe Frazier Ken Norton George Foreman Larry Holmes Mike Tyson (12 round) Evander Holyfield (12 round) Riddick Bowe (12 round) Lennox Lewis (12 round) Wladmir Klitschko (12 round) Vitali Klitschko (12 round) Last edited by guilalah; 03-18-2011 at 04:26 PM.
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