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Old 03-22-2011, 04:52 PM   #1
The Funny Man 7
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Default Is Ray Arcel the Greatest Trainer Ever

The guy trained an absurd number of great fighters but I don't hear the guy get as much credit as Futch, Roach, Steward, etc. and I think its baffling. He trained Roberto Duran and Benny Leonard two guys who are consensus locks for the top 10 atg lists and Ezzard Charles and Barney Ross who are both top 15 atg at the worst.

One top of that he trained Sixto Escobar, Teddy Yaroz, Jimmy Braddock, Peppermint Frasier, Tony Zale, Billy Soose and the outstanding Jackie Kid Berg. For me that merits mention as the best trainer ever, possibly tied with Futch. Thoughts.
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Old 03-22-2011, 05:36 PM   #2
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Default Re: Is Ray Arcel the Greatest Trainer Ever

He's number one on my list.
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Old 03-22-2011, 05:50 PM   #3
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Default Re: Is Ray Arcel the Greatest Trainer Ever

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The guy trained an absurd number of great fighters but I don't hear the guy get as much credit as Futch, Roach, Steward, etc. and I think its baffling. He trained Roberto Duran and Benny Leonard two guys who are consensus locks for the top 10 atg lists and Ezzard Charles and Barney Ross who are both top 15 atg at the worst.

One top of that he trained Sixto Escobar, Teddy Yaroz, Jimmy Braddock, Peppermint Frasier, Tony Zale, Billy Soose and the outstanding Jackie Kid Berg. For me that merits mention as the best trainer ever, possibly tied with Futch. Thoughts.
Arcel should have had arms like Popeye,after dragging all those challengers back to their stool after Joe Louis had ko'd them.

Arcel had no input into the development of Benny Leonard .Arcel only worked with Leonard, during his comeback as a pudgy welterweight.
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Old 03-22-2011, 07:36 PM   #4
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Default Re: Is Ray Arcel the Greatest Trainer Ever

He also came to Teddy Yarosz after the fighter had already established himself. Regardless, Arcel and Eddie Futch are top of the mountain in my humble opinion.
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Old 03-22-2011, 07:41 PM   #5
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Default Re: Is Ray Arcel the Greatest Trainer Ever

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He also came to Teddy Yarosz after the fighter had already established himself. Regardless, Arcel and Eddie Futch are top of the mountain in my humble opinion.
I'm not denigrating him ,just making an observation.
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Old 03-22-2011, 08:10 PM   #6
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Default Re: Is Ray Arcel the Greatest Trainer Ever

Fair enough. I forgot to mention Bob Olin who was pretty solid fighter. Gave John Henry Lewis a VICIOUS fight from what I've read.
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Old 03-22-2011, 11:34 PM   #7
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Default Re: Is Ray Arcel the Greatest Trainer Ever

One of the best but had some great fighters as well...guys like him and Angelo Dundee were great finishing trainers but had great tools to work with like Duran,Ali and SRL not to take anything away from them because they added to the equation

Charlie Goldman,Chappie=JoeLouis , George Gainford=SRR were great as well
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Old 03-23-2011, 12:50 AM   #8
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Default Re: Is Ray Arcel the Greatest Trainer Ever

Futch is the best imo.
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Old 03-23-2011, 01:24 AM   #9
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Default Re: Is Ray Arcel the Greatest Trainer Ever

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I'm not denigrating him ,just making an observation.
Didn't take it that way amigo
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Old 03-23-2011, 04:12 AM   #10
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Default Re: Is Ray Arcel the Greatest Trainer Ever

The only thing you can judge trainers on is their ability to attract the best fighters, how good they are as trainers, who knows, Arcel could certainly attract many of the best, that doesn't make him the best
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Old 03-23-2011, 12:21 PM   #11
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Default Re: Is Ray Arcel the Greatest Trainer Ever

He's one of the best of all time. I don't believe there is one singular greatest trainer of all time, but Arcel belongs right beside Freddie Brown, Whitey Bimstein, Mannie Seamon, Charley Goldman and Jack Blackburn. These guys were the best and Arcel is often regarded as the top trainer of this class.

Futch, Dundee and D'Amato are the next best that made their names after these guys.
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Old 03-23-2011, 12:40 PM   #12
burt bienstock
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Default Re: Is Ray Arcel the Greatest Trainer Ever

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Originally Posted by Boucher View Post
Arcel should have had arms like Popeye,after dragging all those challengers back to their stool after Joe Louis had ko'd them.

Arcel had no input into the development of Benny Leonard .Arcel only worked with Leonard, during his comeback as a pudgy welterweight.
True about Ray Arcel hauling back his heavyweight opponents of Louis,after Joe flattened them. The last time Ray dragged his unconscious fighter back to their corner,Louis said to Arcel, "you heah again ".
Ray Arcel was at the top of the heap,during an age of great trainers,who worked most every night taking care of their charges...
I would see most of these great boxing trainers ply their trade at Stillman's gym. Great days for me...
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Old 03-23-2011, 02:11 PM   #13
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Default Re: Is Ray Arcel the Greatest Trainer Ever

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The only thing you can judge trainers on is their ability to attract the best fighters, how good they are as trainers, who knows, Arcel could certainly attract many of the best, that doesn't make him the best
I also think there are serious problems in "rating" how good trainers are.
Like you say, there are guys who end up working with a lot of champions and contenders but the reason for that isn't necessarily anything to do with being better at training that they guy who runs a small local gym and brought a lot of kids along leaps and bounds but never had a top fighter.

Even Cus D'amato, who was obsessive in his work, and brought at least 2 notable kids up from absolute beginner top world champion, had to go through thousands of kids to find those ones. Plus, he employed numerous assistant trainers !

As for Ray Arcel, he was renowned for being a great conditioner.
But people seem to forget that he worked in a team with Whitey Bimstein for many of his top fighters, and later Freddie Brown. He wasn't a one-man show by any means.
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Old 03-23-2011, 02:15 PM   #14
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Default Re: Is Ray Arcel the Greatest Trainer Ever

Brendan Ingle.

The tactical and technical master.
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Old 03-23-2011, 05:49 PM   #15
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Default Re: Is Ray Arcel the Greatest Trainer Ever

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Brendan Ingle.

The tactical and technical master.
The great teacher of bad habits.
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