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Old 03-23-2011, 03:05 PM   #16
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Default Re: Best Result by a young fighter

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Benitez beating Cervantes aged 17?
. But Michael Dokes giving hell and losing a split decision to Teofilo Stevenson at 17 wasn't bad either.
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Old 03-23-2011, 03:17 PM   #17
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Default Re: Best Result by a young fighter

"nipper" daly's whole career.
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Old 03-23-2011, 03:20 PM   #18
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sorry. knee jerk reaction. I just grew up hearing how he was one of the greatest fighters ever and he wasn't even close.
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Old 03-23-2011, 03:27 PM   #19
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Default Re: Best Result by a young fighter

How about these:

AGE 17
1976 WILFRED BENITEZ WPTS vs Antonio Cervantes

AGE 18
1927 TONY CANZONERI WPTS vs Johnny Dundee
1932 BABY ARIZMENDI WPTS vs Fidel LaBarba
1970 ROBERTO DURAN WPTS vs Ernesto Marcel
1976 PIPINO CUEVAS WKO vs Angel Espada

AGE 19
1954 FLOYD PATTERSON WPTS vs Yvonne Durelle
1983 EDWIN ROSARIO WPTS vs Jose Luis Ramirez
1986 MIKE TYSON WPTS Vs James Tillis
1998 MANNY PACQUAIO WKO vs Chatchai Sasakul
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Old 03-23-2011, 03:30 PM   #20
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Default Re: Best Result by a young fighter

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What was so frightening about it? His regional titles came at a time when boxing was in its infancy on the continent and Carpentier had the best trainers in Europe. By the time he went into the military he had lost to every world class fighter he had faced with the exception of Gunboat Smith (which was suspect) and Jeff Smith (who was naturally much smaller in a very close fight). Even Willie Lewis, who was well past his peak and fighting above his best weight and himself never really capable of beating the best beat Carpentier all over the ring (dropping him several times) only to lose a gift decision.
He was still only 20 years old when the war shelved him, with tremendous experience already accrued. There was some controversy over whether or not Jeannette deserved the referee's decision over a youngster Joe outweighed by over 15 pounds. No LHW ever came close to doing what Carp did to Bat Levinski in 1920, not Stribling, Miske, Tunney, Dillon, McGoorty, Tommy Gibbons, or even full fledged HW Bill Brennan (many of them had multiple opportunities to try Levinski).

Carp dethroned Levinski pretty quickly after resuming action. Does he severely truncate Dillon's reign without an interceding war? Does Levinski even win that title in the first place? Carp had to wait until he was nearly 27 to become LHW champion. He had only 19 bouts after the war. He had 11 fights in 1913, and eight more in the first seven months of 1914.

Klompton, it's true that his showings against world class opponents had been tenuous as of 1914, but he was still just 20 ****ING YEARS OLD! He might have had 60 or more additional fights on his resume from mid 1914 to mid 1918, and he knocked out an active and prime Levinski for the title after five comeback matches totaling less than 15 rounds. I'm suggesting that he would have turned the corner far earlier than 1920 without half a decade of inactivity, especially with the quality of experience he was accumulating. 15 rounds with Jeannette, 18 rounds with Papke, 19 with Klaus. He was getting awesome competitive seasoning when he was abruptly cut off by the politics of war.

Today, his historical standing suffers terribly because of what wartime service took away from him, maybe a backlash against all the "unearned" credit that service garnered him during his career and lifetime. The memory of conversations I've had with deceased uncles who were gassed in that war and survived the trenches prohibit me from penalizing him for risking his life as they did. What he achieved despite that war was incredible. (How many careers interrupted by WW II for five full years were resumed and resulted in world titles being won in the postwar period? By the way, Criqui was shelved for less than three between 1914 and 1917.)

No, he wasn't one of the greatest fighters ever, but how much of that was due to not having the luxury of residing in a nation practicing neutrality or being separated from a ground invasion by sea?
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Old 03-23-2011, 03:42 PM   #21
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Default Re: Best Result by a young fighter

cassius clay over liston , i know he was 22 but thats still pretty young considering the opponent
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Old 03-23-2011, 03:44 PM   #22
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Default Re: Best Result by a young fighter

Langford beating Gans aged 17 is out in front.

Then a teenage Charles beating Burley.
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Old 03-23-2011, 03:50 PM   #23
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His victory over Levinsky is highly suspect with plenty of people "in the know" claiming that it was bought and paid for by Rickard to set up the Dempsey fight. Even still Levinsky was well past his prime at this point and turning one poor performance after another by trying to survive to the end of the fight in ND matches to protect his title.

Regardless, you cant say "he was entering a frightening prime" in 1914/15 based on what he did in late 1920. Basically you are lauding what "might have been" which I have always found odd about Carpentier. He lost to Dixie Kid, Klaus, Papke, Jeanette, and others not even close to that level and yet people question what might have been? I could see if he had actually beaten those people. Like Darcy, he actually beat most of the good to great fighters he faced and so you can easily wonder what might he have accomplished. With Carpentier his career basically continued on the same trajectory after the war as it was on before it: Win some Euro fights, fight a world class fighter and lose, win some Euro fights or some shady fights, fight a world class fighter and lose (usually in pretty one sided fashion). One could just as easily say that had Carpentier's career not been interrupted by the war he might have continued to suffer beatings at the hands of his betters and his career may have been inalterably shortened. No fight of the century, no LHW title, etc etc. You are talking about several years he was on the shelf when he didnt have to face guys like Greb, Gibbons, (Hell even a prime Tommy, an older and fading Tommy beat the bejabbers out of him), Darcy, Fulton, Willard, Wills, Norfolk, Dillon, and so on and so forth. You could actually argue that the war lengthened his career and opened an opportunity afterwards for him to come in on basically his reputation, ahead of several contenders who had actually earned the right, to fight for both the LHW and HW championship.
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Old 03-23-2011, 04:00 PM   #24
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Default Re: Best Result by a young fighter

How about Jimmy McLarnin?

Age 16:
Outpointed Fidel Labarba and drew with 200+ fight veteran Memphis Pal Moore... both future members of the IBHOF.

Age 17:
Beat LaBarba again... plus 3 more HOFers, Bud Taylor, Pancho Villa and Jackie Fields.
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Old 03-23-2011, 04:02 PM   #25
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Default Re: Best Result by a young fighter

LaB was a green kid himself when McLarnin beat him.
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Old 03-23-2011, 04:10 PM   #26
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Default Re: Best Result by a young fighter

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Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
Langford beating Gans aged 17 is out in front.

Then a teenage Charles beating Burley.
Not that it takes anything away from it, really, but wasn't Langford 20? Or am I missing something?

Hadn't realised Charles was but a teen, some ****in scalp for the boy that like.
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Old 03-23-2011, 04:30 PM   #27
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Default Re: Best Result by a young fighter

Klompton, it seems you have the same reservations about Carp's quality that I have about Bob Foster (who was fortunate to reign during a weak era at 175).
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Old 03-23-2011, 04:33 PM   #28
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Default Re: Best Result by a young fighter

Moyle has Langford at 17 for Gans, and that's good enough for me.

But yeah, I acknowledge he could have been 20.
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Old 03-23-2011, 04:34 PM   #29
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Default Re: Best Result by a young fighter

McLarnin is so underrated its ridiculous. He was pretty amazing.

I think Foster knocks Carpentier out but I do agree that he reigned over a weak era. Hes also not a very likeable guy. Definately someone who could be mentioned in the ego maniac thread.

I dont think Carpentier reigned over a weak era I think his title was bought and paid for and he was protected afterwards and still managed to lose to one of the worst title challengers of the era by KO.
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Old 03-23-2011, 04:35 PM   #30
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Default Re: Best Result by a young fighter

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Moyle has Langford at 17 for Gans, and that's good enough for me.

But yeah, I acknowledge he could have been 20.
Cool, cheers man. Either way (or indeed anywhere inbetween), its pretty damn decent.
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