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Old 07-01-2007, 12:01 PM   #16
JimmyShimmy
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Default Re: Just watched Tunney/Dempsey II...

Dempsey's heart was not in it at this time. In his training towards the bout he had as many off days as he did good.

Still, you'll notice he makes the rounds much closer in the second fight than he did the first. He was in better shape for the rematch, but he still commented about how easily he was winded and how his legs were slow.

Tunney was a demon. A super-precise boxer with all the intangibles. He trained like a robot and did very well to get up and control the rest of the fight like he did.
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Old 07-01-2007, 01:07 PM   #17
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Default Re: Just watched Tunney/Dempsey II...

The Dempsey-Tunney argument is much like the Castillo-Hatton argument.

Many say Castillo was old but in all honesty can you see Castillo not tasting hell if he was ABSOLUTE prime?

Same for Dempsey, even if he is in his ABSOLUTE prime Tunney takes him to hell and back again.
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Old 07-01-2007, 04:56 PM   #18
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Default Re: Just watched Tunney/Dempsey II...

To me, the key instant in Tunney/Dempsey II was the exchange that set up the Long Count, when Tunney jabbed, Dempsey canted his head to his left, and rammbed his "Iron Mike" from the other side of Gene's extended left to the temple, wobbling Tunney from ring center, to where Dempsey nailed him with his hook as Gene ricocheted off the ropes.

If the Dempsey of Toledo had been in there with Tunney, he would have been slipping Gene's jab repeatedly in that fashion, stunning him with that counter right, over and over. The version of Dempsey who dethroned Willard wouldn't have been barely grazing Tunney with the right-left-right combination he followed up that richocet hook with either, but would have landed all three of those punches flush on Gene.

Even in that situation, Tunney would have easily beaten Dave Barry's count, even if Jack retreated immediately to a neutral corner, but after continually knocking Gene silly, there would have been no choice left but to stop the contest.
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Old 07-01-2007, 08:56 PM   #19
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Default Re: Just watched Tunney/Dempsey II...

Quote:
Originally Posted by salsanchezfan
..............No argument. But if that's the criteria one uses to conclude that a referee is in the bag, it's pretty dubious.
I'll add to that, using Ferdie Pacheco's book, The Twelve Greatest Rounds of Boxing, copyright 2000, Total Sports Illustrated, publishers, pp. 28-29:

Quote:
The Untold Story

(Writer Roger Kahn, talking to Pacheco, begins) "The question is not only whether Tunney could have gotten up. If he had gotten up he would have been confused, and if you're confused in the ring with Jack Dempsey, it's all over."

Right at this point is where the background, the untold story, gets murky. The main culprit seems to be the referee, Dave Barry. Who was he? Why was he hired to work this important fight? Did he affect the outcome? Was he crooked? Was the fix in?

And what about Gene Tunney? Superficially, at least, he was an impressive, virtuous fellow, squeaky clean and intellectual. But did the substance match the surface?

In my interview with Roger Kahn, the writer disclosed that referee Barry had some skeletons in his closet, while Tunney's background included an unsavory relationship with organized crime.

"For a start," says Kahn, "we have Gene Tunney involved with the Philadelphia mob headed by 'Boo Boo' Hoff and his pals. Boo Boo was an ominous figure in those days. Al Capone in Chicago admired boxers, so he wanted to manage Dempsey, who had the common sense to decline Al's offer. Capone did not get mad, and remained heavily committed to Dempsey.

"Two referees were considered for the fight. Dave Miller, whom Benny Leonard considered the best in the country, was favored for the assignment. Word filtered down to Philly that Capone liked Miller, and that Capone was trying to fix the fight. At this point a second ref is mentioned: Dave Barry. Now, Barry is running a speakeasy in Chicago; this is something that Capone does not like, but anyway, the fact is that Dave Barry is operating outside the law.

"Where but in Chicago in the twenties," Kahn concludes, "could you have a hoodlum referee a world title fight."

The Long Count has been analyzed in every possible way. What has been overlooked, however, is Dave Barry's behavior in the next round, the eighth, when Tunney knocks Dempsey down. Where is Barry at that time? Right on top of Dempsey, counting "One..." as soon as Dempsey's rear end hits the canvas. And Tunney? Did he run to a neutral corner so that Barry could begin the count? Hardly, says Kahn: "Tunney was as close to a neutral corner as I am to Moscow. And this was not the only evidence of a biased ref. A referee has many ways to influence a fight; for example, on the break."

One of Dempsey's favorite tactics was to hit on the break -- as he was moving back out of a clinch, he'd pull the other fighter with one hand and sucker punch him with the other. Dempsey was fierce coming out of a clinch. He won an important fight with ex-champ Jack Sharkey by using his wits. Sharkey, hit low by Dempsey, turned to the ref in a clinch to complain, and Dempsey decked him. When criticized for hitting on the break, Dempsey deadpanned, "What was I supposed to do, send him a letter?"

In this fight, Dave Barry would grab Dempsey's right arm so that he could not punch or move the other fighter, in effect neutralizing Dempsey's infighting. All of these factors, along with the fact that Boo Boo Hoff had loaned Tunney a staggering $200,000, gave the fight its lingering piscine aroma. Tunney was no saint, and neither was Dempsey. Tunney never did explain his connection with Boo Boo Hoff. He didn't need to; there was no postfight investigation."
So as to just using how Barry counted over Dempsey to conclude he was probably crooked, Pacheco/Kahn add a few more things to the list.

As to this one by achillesthegreat:

Quote:
Same for Dempsey, even if he is in his ABSOLUTE prime Tunney takes him to hell and back again.
I can't agree with that. Minus the long count, he might have gone on to beat Dempsey in this fight because Dempsey was getting up there in age, and had been through a lot of battles and trained little. However, in his prime, I think Dempsey could have ripped off Tunney's head and crapped down his neck, sorry. I still remember reading a story about Dempsey walking to his restaurant in New York when he was in his seventies, and two guys chose him as an easy mark to mug. One punch apiece had them on the ground waiting for the cops. Whether or not this proves he was a good boxer, for an around-75-year-old boxer to do that sort of suggests he had more than enough power forty years earlier.

In short, everyone's got their opinions, no one will ever agree on this fight, but I've offered a few more opinions here. Take them as you will.
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Old 07-01-2007, 09:55 PM   #20
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Default Re: Just watched Tunney/Dempsey II...

Note: I forgot to mention that (although perhaps many of you already know) that the quoted Roger Kahn is a Dempsey biographer, having written Flame of Pure Fire: Jack Dempsey and the Roaring 20's, in which he also says that, upon watching replays of that round in Dempsey-Tunney 2, when Barry IMMEDIATELY starts counting over Dempsey while Tunney is standing right there, "I am watching a crooked referee in 1927 Chicago."
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Old 07-01-2007, 11:02 PM   #21
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Default Re: Just watched Tunney/Dempsey II...

Quote:
Originally Posted by captherp
I'll add to that, using Ferdie Pacheco's book, The Twelve Greatest Rounds of Boxing, copyright 2000, Total Sports Illustrated, publishers, pp. 28-29:



So as to just using how Barry counted over Dempsey to conclude he was probably crooked, Pacheco/Kahn add a few more things to the list.

As to this one by achillesthegreat:



I can't agree with that. Minus the long count, he might have gone on to beat Dempsey in this fight because Dempsey was getting up there in age, and had been through a lot of battles and trained little. However, in his prime, I think Dempsey could have ripped off Tunney's head and crapped down his neck, sorry. I still remember reading a story about Dempsey walking to his restaurant in New York when he was in his seventies, and two guys chose him as an easy mark to mug. One punch apiece had them on the ground waiting for the cops. Whether or not this proves he was a good boxer, for an around-75-year-old boxer to do that sort of suggests he had more than enough power forty years earlier.

In short, everyone's got their opinions, no one will ever agree on this fight, but I've offered a few more opinions here. Take them as you will.


..............Nothing but conjecture. Not a shred of real evidence there. In the end, no one can say that Dempsey's knockdown of Tunney was handled outside the rules. And yes, he may have started a quick count on Dempsey when he was knocked down in the following round, but if one was to look back at referrees' performances over the years, there have been a hell of a lot worse transgressions, and no one calls them crooked.


Where in Phoenix are you from? I used to live there........
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Old 07-03-2007, 12:01 AM   #22
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Default Re: Just watched Tunney/Dempsey II...

Quote:
Originally Posted by salsanchezfan
..............Nothing but conjecture. Not a shred of real evidence there. In the end, no one can say that Dempsey's knockdown of Tunney was handled outside the rules. And yes, he may have started a quick count on Dempsey when he was knocked down in the following round, but if one was to look back at referrees' performances over the years, there have been a hell of a lot worse transgressions, and no one calls them crooked.


Where in Phoenix are you from? I used to live there........
Central Phoenix, near 7th Ave./Missouri.
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Old 07-03-2007, 12:05 AM   #23
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Default Re: Just watched Tunney/Dempsey II...

BTW, the fact that Tunney borrowed two hundred grand from a mobster ain't conjecture. If you watch the film, too, Barry is counting over Tunney REAL SLOW, and that is after the timekeeper was up to five before Barry starts counting.
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Old 07-03-2007, 12:16 AM   #24
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Default Re: Just watched Tunney/Dempsey II...

Quote:
Originally Posted by captherp
Central Phoenix, near 7th Ave./Missouri.

.............I lived on 85th and Belleview in Scottsdale, near where the Motorola plant is/was. By the old Los Arcos Mall, which is defunct now, as I understand it.
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Old 07-03-2007, 06:59 AM   #25
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Default Re: Just watched Tunney/Dempsey II...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Russell
And Tunney was absolutely amazing at staying off the ropes. Truly.

All those backward miles must of made him into what he was in regards to that.

Anyone agree? Thoughts, opinions...?
Yes. Dempsey was better trained the second time. Dempsey was by no means slow. Tunney's quick feet, stmaina, and mental focus didn't give Dempsey a chance to land much. Tunney knew the ropes and the corners would be his bane, so he boxed, and moved.
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Old 07-03-2007, 10:39 AM   #26
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Default Re: Just watched Tunney/Dempsey II...

Quote:
Originally Posted by salsanchezfan
.............I lived on 85th and Belleview in Scottsdale, near where the Motorola plant is/was. By the old Los Arcos Mall, which is defunct now, as I understand it.
Yup, they tore it down, I think. Not sure what's in its place now.

BTW, I liked Salvador Sanchez too.
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Old 07-03-2007, 03:32 PM   #27
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Default Re: Just watched Tunney/Dempsey II...

The excuses people come up with for Dempsey are like that of Liston for Ali. Dempsey, like Liston, is a great fighter but got he PIMPED...

...TWICE!
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