Muhammad Ali vs Teofilo Stevenson

[MagnaNasakki]

Stevenson was a great amateur boxer, not a great fighter.

Amateurs rarely peak that young, and its impossible to master the craft at a 12-15 round level fighting 3 rounds. It becomes its own sport.

Teofilo is one of the best ever at Amateur boxing, but he doesn't have even the whiff of a shot against a true great prizefighting champion. He never learned how to box pro.

Ali by what he wants any time after the 4th round.

[McGrain]

Originally Posted by MagnaNasakki

Stevenson was a great amateur boxer, not a great fighter.

Amateurs rarely peak that young, and its impossible to master the craft at a 12-15 round level fighting 3 rounds. It becomes its own sport.

Teofilo is one of the best ever at Amateur boxing, but he doesn't have even the whiff of a shot against a true great prizefighting champion. He never learned how to box pro.

Ali by what he wants any time after the 4th round.

[orriray59]

Originally Posted by sirhenrycooper6

Stevenson by KO , imo .

Ali ate punches from Shavers and Foreman, you think this average joe would KO Ali?

Originally Posted by orriray59

Ali ate punches from Shavers and Foreman, you think this average joe would KO Ali?

yah, cuz stevenson was an average joe,
cunt.
he was 1 gr8 amateur and beat MANY great opponents .
no doubt ,
had he turned pro ,
he wud have been devestating .
it is fact . it is 1 different style compared 2 shavers n foreman,
n anyway , like i said , u foolish cunt ,
foreman did not land A LOT of flush shots on the head of Ali . it is fact .
Shavers prob did hit hardr then stevenson ,
but stevenson was faster , 1 better finisher, moar skilled ,
and not as wild .so just stfu u fucking cunt .
u make no fucking sense

[Addie]

Originally Posted by sirhenrycooper6

yah, cuz stevenson was an average joe,
cunt.
he was 1 gr8 amateur and beat MANY great opponents .
no doubt ,
had he turned pro ,
he wud have been devestating .
it is fact . it is 1 different style compared 2 shavers n foreman,
n anyway , like i said , u foolish cunt ,
foreman did not land A LOT of flush shots on the head of Ali . it is fact .
Shavers prob did hit hardr then stevenson ,
but stevenson was faster , 1 better finisher, moar skilled ,
and not as wild .so just stfu u fucking cunt .
u make no fucking sense

Originally Posted by Addie

he is 13 yrs old
enough said 4 tht sad cunt
and u can stfu n stop shadowing my posts u faggit

[Unforgiven]

People can say, "he never learned to box pro" but Stevenson was a full-time fighter in the golden era of amateur boxing. A terrific talent and puncher. The amateur fights then had proper knock-outs and 8oz gloves, and same scoring as the pro fights. But, yes, they were only 3 x 3 minutes.

Critics used to say "he never learned to box like a professional" about Ali too, even into the 70s while he was professional champion of the world.

Leon Spinks at 6-0-1 was not better than Stevenson, IMO.
And guys like Richard Dunn (1976), J-P Coopman (1976) and Alfredo Evangelista (1977) would likely have been easy set-ups for a pro debuting Stevenson, IMO.

Viewed in light of that perspective, I wouldn't rule out Stevenson's chances.

[clark]

Ali wins by stoppage. It all depends on Ali's motivation at that time.
By this I mean, if motivated, Ali stops Teofilo in a few rounds. If not
motivated, Ali stops him in the later rounds.

[MagnaNasakki]

Originally Posted by Unforgiven

People can say, "he never learned to box pro" but Stevenson was a full-time fighter in the golden era of amateur boxing. A terrific talent and puncher. The amateur fights then had proper knock-outs and 8oz gloves, and same scoring as the pro fights. But, yes, they were only 3 x 3 minutes.

Critics used to say "he never learned to box like a professional" about Ali too, even into the 70s while he was professional champion of the world.

Leon Spinks at 6-0-1 was not better than Stevenson, IMO.
And guys like Richard Dunn (1976), J-P Coopman (1976) and Alfredo Evangelista (1977) would likely have been easy set-ups for a pro debuting Stevenson, IMO.

Viewed in light of that perspective, I wouldn't rule out Stevenson's chances.

I would.

Full time fighter doesn't matter. He was still an amateur, fighting amateurs over the amateur distance. Never once beat a great fighter who fought great.

Boxing LIKE a professional is not the issue. Its boxing AS a professional. To come out of a 3 X 3 minute career and start beating contenders doesn't happen. Theres a reason even the Cubans today are atleast fighting a bit before stepping up. Its an entirely different game.

As amateurish as young Ali often boxed, he still took his time and adjusted to the nuances of a distance fight. If Stevenson did this with 10 or so fights, we can talk, but to DEBUT against the undisputed champ, who would easily take him past his not only preferred but well practiced distance, is a foolish notion. There is literally nothing that Stevenson would have for Ali barring a single, huge punch. Ali fought better fighters over longer distances. Teofilo fought some great amateurs, but most often they were young, had yet to learn and grow. A great amateur is NOT a great prizefighter. He is a great amateur. They are different. Doesn't matter how good your amateur career was, until you go pro and prove it, your a ? in the prizefighting game.

To suggest Teofilo Stevenson could defeat Ali in his pro debut is asinine. And yes, Spinks would walk over Stevenson in a debut, as well. Teofilo might do well through three, but without practice and experience, he would tire, tighten, and Neon would run him over.

Again, its all different if he gets some pro experience under his belt.

[Unforgiven]

Originally Posted by MagnaNasakki

I would.

Full time fighter doesn't matter. He was still an amateur, fighting amateurs over the amateur distance. Never once beat a great fighter who fought great.

Boxing LIKE a professional is not the issue. Its boxing AS a professional. To come out of a 3 X 3 minute career and start beating contenders doesn't happen. Theres a reason even the Cubans today are atleast fighting a bit before stepping up. Its an entirely different game.

As amateurish as young Ali often boxed, he still took his time and adjusted to the nuances of a distance fight. If Stevenson did this with 10 or so fights, we can talk, but to DEBUT against the undisputed champ, who would easily take him past his not only preferred but well practiced distance, is a foolish notion. There is literally nothing that Stevenson would have for Ali barring a single, huge punch. Ali fought better fighters over longer distances. Teofilo fought some great amateurs, but most often they were young, had yet to learn and grow. A great amateur is NOT a great prizefighter. He is a great amateur. They are different. Doesn't matter how good your amateur career was, until you go pro and prove it, your a ? in the prizefighting game.

To suggest Teofilo Stevenson could defeat Ali in his pro debut is asinine. And yes, Spinks would walk over Stevenson in a debut, as well. Teofilo might do well through three, but without practice and experience, he would tire, tighten, and Neon would run him over.

Again, its all different if he gets some pro experience under his belt.

A prime Stevenson probably beats any version of Leon Spinks in a pro debut, IMO.

Obviously I'm just speculating. It may well be the case that even with extensive preparation Stevenson would prove ordinary past 4 or 5 rounds.
But you are just speculating too, you are assuming you know his limit capabilities coming straight out of the amateurs.

There is no magic difference in fighting ability between a "professional" and a great Olympic amateur.
Some "professional" boxers are awful excuses for fighters, and often good amateurs actually learn nothing in their first 10 fights or so where they are way undermatched, if they improve it is often due to what they are doing in the gyms.
It's a stretch to believe going 6, 8 or 10 rounds with a "professional" regardless of quality automatically makes you better than the greatest amateur ever.

If I was a promoter I'd be confident putting Teofilio in with fighters like Coopman, Wepner, Dunn, and, yes, Leon Spinks, on his pro debut.
That's my take.

[MagnaNasakki]

Originally Posted by Unforgiven

A prime Stevenson probably beats any version of Leon Spinks in a pro debut, IMO.

Obviously I'm just speculating. It may well be the case that even with extensive preparation Stevenson would prove ordinary past 4 or 5 rounds.
But you are just speculating too, you are assuming you know his limit capabilities coming straight out of the amateurs.

There is no magic difference in fighting ability between a "professional" and a great Olympic amateur.
Some "professional" boxers are awful excuses for fighters, and often good amateurs actually learn nothing in their first 10 fights or so where they are way undermatched, if they improve it is often due to what they are doing in the gyms.
It's a stretch to believe going 6, 8 or 10 rounds with a "professional" regardless of quality automatically makes you better than the greatest amateur ever.

If I was a promoter I'd be confident putting Teofilio in with fighters like Coopman, Wepner, Dunn, and, yes, Leon Spinks, on his pro debut.
That's my take.

Fair enough mate.

I do disagree with you on the differences between the two games, though. Pro's learn alot as they train and spar like pro's, and with other, more accomplished pro's. I was, in my day, one of the top amateur American heavyweights in the 80's, and I evolved SO much as a fighter after falling short in the Trials and going to camp with real professional contenders. But, thats me. But there is definitely evidence of a difference.

And we aren't talking about a "professional regardless of quality", we're talking about Muhammad Ali and another gold medalist with a couple tough fights over the distance behind him. Stevenson could debut against Joe Schmo and the fight probably doesn't make it out of the 1st.

I also don't see the foregone greatness in guys like Stevenson and Savon that others do. Fantastic physical talents with tons of technical promise to be sure, but fairly basic games that even in their late 20's had some evolving to do. I see much more dimension and craft in the greatest heavyweights ever than I do in the greatest amateur heavyweights ever.

But, you are correct. All speculation. Most everything we talk about is!

[DudeGuyMan]

Originally Posted by Boxed Ears

Mighty fine signature you have there, Dude. Gave me an idea about my own, I must say.

Ain't it though? Yeah Boxed Ears here made me my Boston Tom sig. It's pretty sweet. I think SNV needs his own ballad though.

It's Sugar Nikolai Valuev
A Skillful man indeed!
Even prime Muhammad Ali
can't match his blinding speed!

Or something like that.