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Old 03-31-2011, 12:09 AM   #1
reznick
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Default Okay, so after Liston vs Patterson

How can anyone believe that Tyson would beat Foreman?



Liston & Foreman = School of bludgeon power punches

Patterson & Tyson = School of Cus' Peek-a-boo



The style similarities are so distinct here, that I find it quite hard for someone to say Tyson would beat Foreman.



Patterson knocked people out in just as great fashion as Tyson, if not, better. Yet, when it came to Sonny, that was not the case.


And the reason for this, is because Patterson and Tyson get their power from thrusting their entire body into the punch, whereas Liston and Foreman are using their sheer core power. Peek-a-boo punching compensates power punching for balance in a way that Listons and Foremans style did not.


Now even if those two type of fighters were even in power, the one who is not swinging his body to gain momentum off the punches, is going to win that exchange, because he is not compensating balance for power.



Tyson and Floyd compensated balance for power. Thats why someone like Floyd who has such a small frame could do so much damage. It was technique, not pure power. Not the mention the lunges. Peek-a-boo style encourages lunging at the opponent to score big punches. Lunging at Foreman would be suicide


So how can Tyson even dream to stand a chance against Foreman?

Speed? Because Patterson was faster than Liston. Faster than Tyson too in some areas.


It just would never happen.



imo
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Old 03-31-2011, 12:15 AM   #2
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Default Re: Okay, so after Liston vs Patterson

Cus warned Tyson to stay away from Foreman and Mike abided by his recomendation.
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Old 03-31-2011, 12:24 AM   #3
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Default Re: Okay, so after Liston vs Patterson

Also have read several interviews where Tyson himself admitted he knew the George Foreman was his kryptonite.

Tyson was a killing machine, and he did have great head movement, but even in fights where he was killing cans in the 1st round, he'd take right hands and uppercuts to the head. Foreman would find him from the first bell, and do it fairly often. The real question is how Tyson handles it, and thats the factor in the match up.

I think Liston kills Mike. Amazing jab, amazing chin, big power, big strength, and rarely threw single power shots. Literally, everything you needed to beat Mike Tyson Sonny Liston did exceptionally well.
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Old 03-31-2011, 04:47 AM   #4
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Default Re: Okay, so after Liston vs Patterson

I don't have time just now, but my thoughts, briefly.

I'm more concerned by Cus's harping on about Foreman than what I see on film. I consider Tyson mentally fragile for a great champion and it's like that this would be an issue for him. However, technically, I think Tyson should be favoured. Briefly, why, and the difference between the two fights you've compared.

1) Liston and Foreman. Liston beat Foreman with succinct, short-arm punches at that range. His own balance and technical ability are in advance of Foreman's.

2) Tyson is a power-puncher, Patterson is a really good sharp puncher. This is important too.

3) Tyson throws punches over planes that no other heavyweight threw punches over, certainly not Patterson. He could counter and lead from angles Foreman isn't prepared for and which don't compromise Tyson defensively at the range he wants to fight at.

4) Foreman's "push and punch" style is perfect for Tyson given his vast advantage in hand-speed and his explosive ability in closing the distance. As Tyson gets his to fight at his prefered distance (which almost always makes him a favourite) his vast advantage in handspeed and technical punching will tell. In short, sharp, fast power-punching is always going to trump wider slower punching. This is an absolutely crucial point and not something that was road-tested in Liston-Patterson, at all.

Both have stamina issues and those stamina issues would play Tyson into Foreman's hands but I think Tyson could Foreman out of there in about 5 which would mean it wouldn't really be a factor.

However, no money would be going down, because if they met prime for prime Tyson would be hampered by the fact that his mentor had spent his entire career telling him he couldn't beat George.
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Old 03-31-2011, 07:03 AM   #5
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Default Re: Okay, so after Liston vs Patterson

Disagree wholeheartedly. When did Tyson counter? He lead. He'd feint the guy on the outside, but it was Mike Tyson throwing first. Floyd countered more.

The big flaw being Tyson closing the gap quickly. I don't see it & never did. He closes gaps quickly on old fighters and then land the combos. When he was the old guy, what happened? Patterson had the better footwork of the 2.

That D'amato system is a dip left dip right system dip left spring up and punch while coming up out of the crouch. It's on a count. And it almost always ends with the dip left. It's a single step when launching the left hand or a 3 step. 2 steps with a right lead and you are squared up. Almost always a left lead jab or lead left hook lead punch system.

1 step does not cover enough physical territory to get inside a Foreman to get the proper arc and angle on punches delivered. 3 steps is just way way too many. And that system requires top conditioning to be successful. Watch what Foreman did to Frazier in that first fight. He shoved Joe's right shoulder with his left hand and made Joe a wide target with a much much wider torso and not in position to launch his sizzling left hook. Didn't try landing a punch, just shove the inside shoulder which twists Frazier. Once Frazier tried stepped in, the powershots were on the way. To where he was moving into
them.


Similar in some ways to what Liston did to Patterson. Sonny didn't shove but maintained his distance with a single jab and let Floyd come to him because he utilizes a going forward style only. Horrible while retreating. Then what Sonny and Foreman did was launch big shots to where the opponent was moving to. Not a punch at them because they'll slip it. But to where they were going to step to. And where that head was going to be. Bang. Caught them clean walking in. They did their homework and followed instructions to a T. And the results were a few of the most devastating early ko's in the history of heavyweight title fights.

That's a main reason Tyson looks much better against guys not very tall. If he can reach them via dipping and just taking 1 step, he's more effective. Tall guys that fight tall are out of range. And Tyson does the same thing and comes in and gets tied up easily. Guys with minimal defense like Smith did just that and nothing more. What bag of tricks does a Smith turn to in a fight? And Tyson could not solve the guy. All Smith has defensively is physical size. He sure isn't parrying punches in there. But if the opponent is shorter and within that arc of the Tyson shots, like a Spinks or Berbick, different story.

Actually, another fight that demonstrates that flaw in the D'Amato system is the Rooney--Arguello fight. Rooney is out there closing the gap dipping left and right and springing up. Landing. Doing what he is supposed to do. In the 2nd round, Alexis launches a right hand to where he is moving to.
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Old 03-31-2011, 07:15 AM   #6
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Default Re: Okay, so after Liston vs Patterson

I don't think the similarities are much at all.

I won't get drawn into a full-blown analysis, but two points :

1. Foreman stood straight up like a robot (or a 'mummy'), his chin hanging out, there to be hit. He didn't bother slipping punches.
Compare that to Liston, who understood the concept of defense, slipped punches, covered up and tucked in, etc.

2. Tyson's chin and power were considerably stronger than Floyd's.


It's a different fight on many many levels. Tyson is a significantly different animal to Floyd, and the differences in styles between Liston and Foreman are even greater.
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Old 03-31-2011, 11:45 AM   #7
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Default Re: Okay, so after Liston vs Patterson

this comparison is not a good one. liston was a gifted boxer, he wasn't just a wrecking machine like foreman - he had ring smarts, was relatively elusive for his size, and could throw combinations! quite annoying when these two are compared...

tyson was considerably more powerful than patterson, and he had a mad chin too...

if anything, tyson struggles more against liston than any other fighter... but even then, he doesn't do as badly as patterson did.
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Old 03-31-2011, 12:03 PM   #8
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Default Re: Okay, so after Liston vs Patterson

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unforgiven View Post
I don't think the similarities are much at all.

I won't get drawn into a full-blown analysis, but two points :

1. Foreman stood straight up like a robot (or a 'mummy'), his chin hanging out, there to be hit. He didn't bother slipping punches.
Compare that to Liston, who understood the concept of defense, slipped punches, covered up and tucked in, etc.

2. Tyson's chin and power were considerably stronger than Floyd's.


It's a different fight on many many levels. Tyson is a significantly different animal to Floyd, and the differences in styles between Liston and Foreman are even greater.
I tend to fall in this school of thought.

Plus, the fact that Foreman himself said he really wanted know part of Tyson in the early 90's. But then again, Foreman said a lot crap and contradicted himself often.
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Old 03-31-2011, 12:37 PM   #9
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Default Re: Okay, so after Liston vs Patterson

Great points all around. I will leave you with one thought...The 1991 George Foreman wouldn't stand a chance against the 91 Mike Tyson. However, the 1970's Foreman just may.
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Old 03-31-2011, 12:48 PM   #10
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Default Re: Okay, so after Liston vs Patterson

Quote:
Originally Posted by Longhhorn71 View Post
Cus warned Tyson to stay away from Foreman and Mike abided by his recomendation.
Had n't cus died before Foreman made his comeback ?? Just for the record,i reckon that Tyson would havce decisioned Foreman in 1991. But a prime Foreman beats a prime Tyson. Foreman too tough.
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Old 03-31-2011, 02:21 PM   #11
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Default Re: Okay, so after Liston vs Patterson

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevie G View Post
Hadn't cus died before Foreman made his comeback ?? Just for the record,i reckon that Tyson would havce decisioned Foreman in 1991. But a prime Foreman beats a prime Tyson. Foreman too tough.
yeah he had. i assume this myth is born out of d'amato's insistence that foreman would have been tyson's kryptonite, in a hypothetical scenario.

i actually think old foreman has a better chance against tyson.
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Old 03-31-2011, 02:26 PM   #12
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Default Re: Okay, so after Liston vs Patterson

great posts guys, and interesting points brought up.


Many of you seem to disagree, but I think the style clash is eerily similar.


Patterson defeating Liston sounds just as promising the way you guys put it.


But I think looking into it any deeper that Tyson and Patterson strictly coming forward to land punches against two of the strongest heavyweights in history would be making your brain work extra hard for no reason.



What's Tyson plan, if Foreman landed a single jab on Tyson. Imagine it, Foreman lands a big jab on Tyson that slows his momentum down momentarily, the crowd goes "Oooh"

Then what? Tyson keeps coming forward? What if he got hurt by a punch in round 1. A body punch. He cant just fight on his back foot, he will have to stick to his style.

Foreman could easily get hurt too, but he can actually go backwards and still fight.


Can Tyson fight going backwards?




You could see it in Patterson body language in their first fist. Right off the bat, Patterson actually lands a nice punch or two using his bobs and weaves. Liston replies with a punch of his own sending Patterson back. After this Patterson just circled the ring for like 5-10 seconds confused. Then he came in again. Because he knows no other style


And Tyson too, knows no other style. And the minute hes in trouble with someone who can punch harder than him, he has no plan B



imo




It would be a great fight
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Old 03-31-2011, 02:34 PM   #13
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Default Re: Okay, so after Liston vs Patterson

i agree with your analysis if we're talking about old foreman, reznick. he could throw well-timed, efficient punches. he could link them together pretty well too (see holyfield fight). young foreman just wouldn't hit the moving target that is tyson's head often enough to prevent tyson's approach. liston was able to throw volleys of effective punches, and someone like that would make more meaningful contact, more often. finally, the stamina of tyson > the stamina of young foreman.
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Old 03-31-2011, 02:42 PM   #14
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Default Re: Okay, so after Liston vs Patterson

AGEED 110%!!

Liston VS Tyson would look like -

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QrgILByIk50[/ame]

or

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hvv3yD-o3p8&feature=related[/ame]


Big George VS Tyson would looks like -

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4-WjL8jIyQ[/ame]

- BUT only 1 round instead of 2.


Foreman Hooooooooooooooook!
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Old 03-31-2011, 03:09 PM   #15
reznick
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Default Re: Okay, so after Liston vs Patterson

The Liston vs Patterson videos illustrate better than anything else, why a one-way straight forward style is suicide against someone stronger who will go forwards, backwards, and side to side

Quote:
Originally Posted by goat15 View Post
i agree with your analysis if we're talking about old foreman, reznick. he could throw well-timed, efficient punches. he could link them together pretty well too (see holyfield fight). young foreman just wouldn't hit the moving target that is tyson's head often enough to prevent tyson's approach. liston was able to throw volleys of effective punches, and someone like that would make more meaningful contact, more often. finally, the stamina of tyson > the stamina of young foreman.

I must agree on punch accuracy


I think Foremans movement would make up for it, in his prime. I dont think, in my opinion, Tyson in his prime (before Douglas imo) has ever fought anyone with better ring movement than Foreman, barring a Holmes who could only utilize it for 20 seconds.
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