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Old 11-23-2007, 01:51 PM   #1
dpw417
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Default What would Charley Burley do....

Against:

Gavilan at welterweight?

Sugar Ray Leonard at welter?

Mike McCallum at junior middle?

Hagler at middle?

and lastly...

Rodrigo Valdez at middle?

Just curious. I know I'll get at least one answer (McGrain). I'm a Burley apologist as well....But an even bigger Robinson apologist.
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Old 11-23-2007, 02:09 PM   #2
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Default Re: What would Charley Burley do....

You and I are going to be firm friends. Before I begin i'd just like to point out that i've picked against Burley in the last three fantasy matches that have appeared on the board.

I'll start of by picking against him again. Hagler would beat him. Although if it's the Hagler that fought Duran, then Burley has a chance - he could probably convince Hagler that he should be fighting at a slower pace than than he did in that one and a close UD isn't impossible for Charley then (See what I did there?), but basically Hagler UD is the most likely result. In fact there's a chance that Hagler could overwhelm Burley a bit, though probably not.

Sugar Ray Leonard is a fascinating one. Burley has that same sharp-shooting lazer-guided capabilities that Hearns had, the great reach, the consumate boxing skills but he had nothing like the combinations - he was probably more powerful though, and he also new every trick in the book, but the big, big difference is in stamina and chin. Burley won't fade late and Burley had the chin to survive even if he did. Burley UD, under ideal conditions.

Burley has the chin to survive McCallum - he also seemed to have been able to take it to the body. The reverse is also true of course. I see Burley's superior skill making him a favourite to eek out a points win, but McCallum could always land that left hook. Burley's left was wonderful too of course.

I'll pick Burley to beat Kid. To powerful. I think Gavilan's power is a little underated, he looks stinging to me, but if you're not banging against Burley, you'd better be moving or at least a biT bigger - Charley could hit. Dominates him with heavy shots to take a UD.

Robinson...peak for peak I'll take Robinson to shade a fight that is pretty slow by the 15th. This one was actually computerised at one point by Ring, maybe, and that's what happened if memory serves.

They tried to make it just before Robinson came to the title (Robinson, like Zivic leapfrogged Burley), and at that time i'd probably make Burley a slim favourite.

I'd also pick Burley to beat Valdez.

Incidently i'm glad you picked Valdez and Hagler as opposed to Monzon. Monzon is the one as far as Burley goes.

Last edited by McGrain; 11-23-2007 at 02:30 PM.
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Old 11-23-2007, 02:44 PM   #3
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Default Re: What would Charley Burley do....

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain
You and I are going to be firm friends. Before I begin i'd just like to point out that i've picked against Burley in the last three fantasy matches that have appeared on the board.

I'll start of by picking against him again. Hagler would beat him. Although if it's the Hagler that fought Duran, then Burley has a chance - he could probably convince Hagler that he should be fighting at a slower pace than than he did in that one and a close UD isn't impossible for Charley then (See what I did there?), but basically Hagler UD is the most likely result. In fact there's a chance that Hagler could overwhelm Burley a bit, though probably not.

Sugar Ray Leonard is a fascinating one. Burley has that same sharp-shooting lazer-guided capabilities that Hearns had, the great reach, the consumate boxing skills but he had nothing like the combinations - he was probably more powerful though, and he also new every trick in the book, but the big, big difference is in stamina and chin. Burley won't fade late and Burley had the chin to survive even if he did. Burley UD, under ideal conditions.

Burley has the chin to survive McCallum - he also seemed to have been able to take it to the body. The reverse is also true of course. I see Burley's superior skill making him a favourite to eek out a points win, but McCallum could always land that left hook. Burley's left was wonderful too of course.

I'll pick Burley to beat Kid. To powerful. I think Gavilan's power is a little underated, he looks stinging to me, but if you're not banging against Burley, you'd better be moving or at least a biT bigger - Charley could hit. Dominates him with heavy shots to take a UD.

Robinson...peak for peak I'll take Robinson to shade a fight that is pretty slow by the 15th. This one was actually computerised at one point by Ring, maybe, and that's what happened if memory serves.

They tried to make it just before Robinson came to the title (Robinson, like Zivic leapfrogged Burley), and at that time i'd probably make Burley a slim favourite.

I'd also pick Burley to beat Valdez.

Incidently i'm glad you picked Valdez and Hagler as opposed to Monzon. Monzon is the one as far as Burley goes.
Thanks for the in-depth reply. I'm not a Burley expert by any means...but I like his style and I'm sorry he never recieved his "shot".
I feel that Burley might get edged by Leonard but it's only a guess. I agree in principle with your reasoning on all the other fights. Burley may have adapted better than Hagler in their match -up.
Watching the only film of Burley...the style is very reminescent of Floyd Mayweather fighting at higher weights, as well as the prototype for Roy Jones style....and how respectful Oakland Billy Smith is of Burley's power!
Ray Robinson may just shade him at middleweight....BUT.... Burley, it seems is the more adaptable to fighting larger men in the light heavyweight division.
Facinating boxer.
I need to read that book by Rosenfield.
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Old 11-23-2007, 10:21 PM   #4
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Default Re: What would Charley Burley do....

Quote:
Originally Posted by dpw417
Thanks for the in-depth reply. I'm not a Burley expert by any means...but I like his style and I'm sorry he never recieved his "shot".
I feel that Burley might get edged by Leonard but it's only a guess. I agree in principle with your reasoning on all the other fights. Burley may have adapted better than Hagler in their match -up.
Watching the only film of Burley...the style is very reminescent of Floyd Mayweather fighting at higher weights, as well as the prototype for Roy Jones style....and how respectful Oakland Billy Smith is of Burley's power!
Ray Robinson may just shade him at middleweight....BUT.... Burley, it seems is the more adaptable to fighting larger men in the light heavyweight division.
Facinating boxer.
I need to read that book by Rosenfield.
To my fellow members of the East Side Boxing Forum:
My nephew has called my attention to your rrecent discussion of Charley Burley, and your including my writing on this formidable guy as part of the discussion. I will continue to mix in this conversation. My opinion of his greatness continues to be formed. Guys like Hagler and particularly Leonard and Gavilan would have been worthy opponents. I will enjoy the interface with such knowledge guys. Pardon my ramblings. Its late this eveninhg.

Best wishes, Allen Rosenfeld
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Old 11-23-2007, 10:31 PM   #5
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Default Re: What would Charley Burley do....

Quote:
Originally Posted by allenrosenfeld
To my fellow members of the East Side Boxing Forum:
My nephew has called my attention to your rrecent discussion of Charley Burley, and your including my writing on this formidable guy as part of the discussion. I will continue to mix in this conversation. My opinion of his greatness continues to be formed. Guys like Hagler and particularly Leonard and Gavilan would have been worthy opponents. I will enjoy the interface with such knowledge guys. Pardon my ramblings. Its late this eveninhg.

Best wishes, Allen Rosenfeld
Mr. Rosenfeld. It is very nice to have you aboard! Welcome!
I'd like to ask how Burley was regarded at the time he was fighting, in his hometown of Pittsburgh, versus the two other great fighters Greb and Conn?
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Old 11-24-2007, 07:15 AM   #6
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Default Re: What would Charley Burley do....

Quote:
Originally Posted by allenrosenfeld
To my fellow members of the East Side Boxing Forum:
My nephew has called my attention to your rrecent discussion of Charley Burley, and your including my writing on this formidable guy as part of the discussion. I will continue to mix in this conversation. My opinion of his greatness continues to be formed. Guys like Hagler and particularly Leonard and Gavilan would have been worthy opponents. I will enjoy the interface with such knowledge guys. Pardon my ramblings. Its late this eveninhg.

Best wishes, Allen Rosenfeld
Hello. I loved your book, it's amongst the best i've read in the field. Good work. I also feel you gave a sense of yourself in the book without hurting it all (I'll offer up Dark Trade as an example of a book that, though wonderful, was hurt a little bit by the author's precence) so I feel certain you'll be a wonderful addition to the ESB classic board.

Hope you'll pop in again soon.
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Old 11-24-2007, 07:16 AM   #7
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Default Re: What would Charley Burley do....

Quote:
Originally Posted by dpw417
Mr. Rosenfeld. It is very nice to have you aboard! Welcome!
I'd like to ask how Burley was regarded at the time he was fighting, in his hometown of Pittsburgh, versus the two other great fighters Greb and Conn?

I'll be intersted to hear what Mr.Rosenfeld has to say about that too. For my own self, I remember a story where Futch introduced Holmes to Burley quite pointedly as "the best fighter ever to come out of Pittsburgh.

Don't forget Zivic, though, when you talk about Pittsburgh fighters.
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Old 11-25-2007, 01:01 PM   #8
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Default Re: What would Charley Burley do....

"Monzon is the one as far as Burley goes"- McGrain
??? It's my opinion that Burley would be extremely problematic for Monzon. Judging by the record, Burley would be very accustomed to fighting bigger men....and Monzon is a left jab/right hand fighter very predominantly. Burley looks on film to be capable of taking Carlos' jab out of the equation....What's plan B? When Burley starts landing looping right hands....
I would think you need very fast hands and feet, not to mention power tackling Charley Burley.
Opps!!! forgot about Zivic being among Pittsburgh's best!

Last edited by dpw417; 11-25-2007 at 01:18 PM.
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Old 11-25-2007, 07:26 PM   #9
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Default Re: What would Charley Burley do....

Did you know that Burley actually carried the nickname, "Giant-Killer" for a little while? Based upon the Turner thing I suppose (he was giving away around 80lbs in that one if memory serves).

However, Burley's repuation for overcoming bigger men is exaggerated. He actually tend to lose against world class bigger men, guys like Marshall and Bivins. And Monzon is absolutlely world class and very very awkward. I personally do not beleive that Burley would find a way to out-point Monzon over three attempts, and he's certainly not stopping him (though he probably does have an edge in power, and a KD might make things interesting right enough).
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Old 11-25-2007, 07:48 PM   #10
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Default Re: What would Charley Burley do....

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain
Did you know that Burley actually carried the nickname, "Giant-Killer" for a little while? Based upon the Turner thing I suppose (he was giving away around 80lbs in that one if memory serves).

However, Burley's repuation for overcoming bigger men is exaggerated. He actually tend to lose against world class bigger men, guys like Marshall and Bivins. And Monzon is absolutlely world class and very very awkward. I personally do not beleive that Burley would find a way to out-point Monzon over three attempts, and he's certainly not stopping him (though he probably does have an edge in power, and a KD might make things interesting right enough).
Yeah, I'm not sure, but I think Turner weighed in the neighborhood of 220-230 lbs. Burley couldn't get fights with anyone, I guess.
When I was thinking about the stylistic match-up between Burley/Monzon, I was considering the opponents each man fought....Monzon: Benvenuti , Griffith, Valdez, and Napoles basically.
Burley: Charles , Bivins, Marshall, Williams, Smith, Zivic, and Moore. (Truly, a murderer's row!)
Granted, Burley did not win all of those fights, but Monzon would not have come out unscathed either. I think Burley would have handled Monzon's opposition much better than the other way around....I would think that Monzon doesn't project anything that Burley has not seen before as far as size and strength. Two of Monzon's main advantages over fellow middleweights....Stylistically, I think he matches up very well. The thing about Monzon is that he was such a consistant winner. It's been fun speculating on this one!
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Old 11-26-2007, 08:12 PM   #11
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Default Re: What would Charley Burley do....

Quote:
Originally Posted by dpw417
Mr. Rosenfeld. It is very nice to have you aboard! Welcome!
I'd like to ask how Burley was regarded at the time he was fighting, in his hometown of Pittsburgh, versus the two other great fighters Greb and Conn?
Thanks for your confidence in my knowledge of this subject. Burley, in my judgment , and the equally expert view of my nephew Brian Schiff, would have little if any chance against Harry Greb. We feel Greb was arguably the greatest prize fighter of all time.

However the Conn would have been in doubt according to eyewitnesses at the time. Johnny Ray, Conn's trainer, seems to have feared Burley--while of course his fighter feared no one. In our book we document the fact that a very irritated Johnny Ray would threaten expulsion from his gym to anyone who even mentioned Charley Burley's name.

Charley would have fought too cautiously against Harry--a lot of clutching. He would not have done as well as Kid Norfolk or Tiger Flowers.

Billy Soose was a clone of Billy Conn. Conn was way better. Burley beat Soose rather easily. Burley vs. Conn would have been in the laps of the officials. That being the case, Conn wins a unanimous decision in Pittsburgh from 1937 until the advent of television. Both of them proved to be better than Fritzie Zivic. And that's saying a lot.
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Old 11-26-2007, 08:20 PM   #12
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Default Re: What would Charley Burley do....

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain
Hello. I loved your book, it's amongst the best i've read in the field. Good work. I also feel you gave a sense of yourself in the book without hurting it all (I'll offer up Dark Trade as an example of a book that, though wonderful, was hurt a little bit by the author's precence) so I feel certain you'll be a wonderful addition to the ESB classic board.

Hope you'll pop in again soon.
I'm pleased with the response in the East Side Boxing Forum. Obviously being self-serving, but, nonetheless, I'd like to ask permission to include the comments of your respected group on my web-site. Respectfully, Allen Rosenfeld.
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Old 11-26-2007, 11:06 PM   #13
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Default Re: What would Charley Burley do....

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Originally Posted by allenrosenfeld
I'm pleased with the response in the East Side Boxing Forum. Obviously being self-serving, but, nonetheless, I'd like to ask permission to include the comments of your respected group on my web-site. Respectfully, Allen Rosenfeld.
Mr. Rosenfeld.
You have permission to use any comments that I've made in this thread for your web-site. It would be a privilage.
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Old 11-27-2007, 05:01 AM   #14
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Default Re: What would Charley Burley do....

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Originally Posted by allenrosenfeld
I'm pleased with the response in the East Side Boxing Forum. Obviously being self-serving, but, nonetheless, I'd like to ask permission to include the comments of your respected group on my web-site. Respectfully, Allen Rosenfeld.
Batter on.

Be nice to have the web address so we can have a look at your site.
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Old 11-27-2007, 05:28 AM   #15
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Default Re: What would Charley Burley do....

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Originally Posted by dpw417
Watching the only film of Burley...the style is very reminescent of Floyd Mayweather fighting at higher weights, as well as the prototype for Roy Jones style....
Unlike Burley, Roy was throwing a lot of combinations, instead of one, or, rarely, two punches at a time. I feel Charley needed to use straight punches more too, as with his hooks and swings it was difficult to get past Smith's block, straight lefts or rights between the gloves would be more effective. What I found strange, and what I feel could have been used against Burley, was the way he slightly jumped up when he was throwing range finding jabs, getting himself off balance, in my opinion.
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