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View Poll Results: Can he become the GOAT?
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Old 04-20-2011, 01:34 PM   #106
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Default Re: Can Anderson Silva surpass fedor as the greatest ever?

Has quite a bit to do but it's possible
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Old 04-20-2011, 01:59 PM   #107
yaca you
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Default Re: Can Anderson Silva surpass fedor as the greatest ever?

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Originally Posted by Stoo View Post
Ive made this point myself with the training

I think he did, he gassed slightly and sometimes that can be due to mental as much
physical exertion. Fedor saw what Nog did to Cro Cop mentally when he came out after the beating he took in the 1st round and force the fight to eventually get the takedown in the 2nd and utilised the pressure tactic from the off. But agree to disagree I guess
how you say he gave up mentaly is odd, when he was still trying to win, fedor was also visibly gassed and output had decreased. Thats why the fight got stood up twice in the third round.


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Yes of course I was generalising because the high kick is the money shot. That was just for the sake of briveity not ignorance. But while the point is raised I think Mirko used his left hand to set up the high kick much better than he did pre Fedor
Are you saying he became a better striker after fedor? Because I think his striking skills declined.

yeah, but he dodged more than just the LHK, Cro-cop always had more than this in his arsenal, and none of it worked on fedor. Im sure he trained hard for this fight, but fedor had whole lot to deal with in this matchup, fedor had to get through some really powerful punches and further had to chase down cro-cop to even get inside to land on him.

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They never fought, but I think Fedor was more dangerous on his feet. Josh, while capable, was always looking to get the fight to the ground.
I know they never fought, but he was well rounded and was beat by cro-cop 3 times- also a very smart fighter but was never able to deal with cro-cops far from one-dimensional game, even after fedor did what he did.

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Originally Posted by Stoo View Post
Randy v Belfort?
Of course specialist lose to well roounded fighter sometimes who the hell said that this is a mathmatical equation? and Belfort was not really a specialist being a bjj blackbelt even though the fought like a pure striker most of the time. But I get your point, that I already knew, and wasnt even contrary to what I said.

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Agree'd somewhat. But Maia v Nate?
yeah, but maia vs everyone else, they knew what he had to offer and his weaknesses. Listen Im not saying a specialist beats a wellrounded fighter all the time just that wellroundedness is not all improtatant in MMA like some people act like. Gsp for instance I feel is not the most well rounded, but he can used his strengths better against your weakness, he can win by transitioning from striking to wrestling and your playing catchup.



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Cool story bro
I see, so you missed the point.

fedor has the mentallity to win the fight, the skills he has help him implement that, but they are not necessarily the skillwise.

I remember what trigg said one time about fedor im paraphrasing here "technacally he does alot of things wrong, the doesnt punch right, his submissions arnet technically right, but he wins right." Thats all that matters he knows what to do to get the win, that makes him special.
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Old 04-20-2011, 02:08 PM   #108
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Default Re: Can Anderson Silva surpass fedor as the greatest ever?

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Now this is just fanboy revisionism and your countering points Ive not attempted to make, Ive said standards have improved and its less specialised not fedor hasnt adapted or him and his opponents where no good at all. Now if you couple this with his physical decline it explains his losses. I expected better from you Yaca. Calm down, ave a cuppa and try to read objectionally not on the defensive
Im not defensive my response was not only to you, it had a wider context.

Im not revising history at all stoo.

You think that the current heavyweight division contains better strikers than mirko in MMA? No.

just so you know, Im not saying you believe that the strikers are better than cro-cop I am asking you if you think they are. Since you try to nitpick. if you agree that they arent better then you agree that fedor would simply have an easier time outstriking them then he did mirko.

It is true that MMA is about wellroundedness now than specialized skills in most ways they are superior to fighters than those who are specialist, but overall doesnt always make them better fighters, the better fighter is the one with his hand raised.

look at brendan vera skillwise he shouldnt have lost to jardine but that doesnt change the fact that he did.

Last edited by yaca you; 04-20-2011 at 02:24 PM.
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Old 04-20-2011, 02:25 PM   #109
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Default Re: Can Anderson Silva surpass fedor as the greatest ever?

Slightly baffled at the idea that being well-rounded isn't important.

The problem with being overly specialised is that it makes you predictable and reliant on keeping the fight in a certain area. If all you can do is grapple then you need to get the fight to the ground, if all you can do is strike then you need to keep it on the feet. That makes you very vulnerable not just to well-rounded opponents but opponents with the skills to take the fight away from your comfort zone. A good recent example of this is Dennis Siver vs. George Sotiropoulos - George just had no plan B when Siver was able to block his takedowns.

Being one-dimensional also means that your opponent have only one thing to worry about countering and so gives them more options when fighting you. So for example if you look at Silva vs. Sonnen, one of the reasons Silva survived Chael's onslaught was because he knew Sonnen had no submission skills. So throughout the fight he was able to give up his back and neck if it meant he was out of range of Sonnen's punches.

And I am stunned at the stupidty of claiming that GSP isn't well-rounded. The man has great kickboxing, excellent wrestling and sound grappling. He's the absolute epitome of a well-rounded fighter in 2011. And that well-roundedness gives him the options to find the best way to beat his opposition with the least risk of being beaten.
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Old 04-20-2011, 02:28 PM   #110
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Default Re: Can Anderson Silva surpass fedor as the greatest ever?

On Fedor's skillset - to me Fedor came in with a world class sambo game and imposed that on his opponents. That sambo skillset meant he was unusually well-rounded for a fighter of the time and allowed him to be competitive whether the fight took place. That his was often seen as technically unsound is more to do with commentators not understanding sambo - as befits what is the Soviet version of modern day combatives in the US Army it was focused more on functionality and simplicity.
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Old 04-20-2011, 02:39 PM   #111
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Default Re: Can Anderson Silva surpass fedor as the greatest ever?

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Slightly baffled at the idea that being well-rounded isn't important.

The problem with being overly specialised is that it makes you predictable and reliant on keeping the fight in a certain area. If all you can do is grapple then you need to get the fight to the ground, if all you can do is strike then you need to keep it on the feet. That makes you very vulnerable not just to well-rounded opponents but opponents with the skills to take the fight away from your comfort zone. A good recent example of this is Dennis Siver vs. George Sotiropoulos - George just had no plan B when Siver was able to block his takedowns.

Being one-dimensional also means that your opponent have only one thing to worry about countering and so gives them more options when fighting you. So for example if you look at Silva vs. Sonnen, one of the reasons Silva survived Chael's onslaught was because he knew Sonnen had no submission skills. So throughout the fight he was able to give up his back and neck if it meant he was out of range of Sonnen's punches.

And I am stunned at the stupidty of claiming that GSP isn't well-rounded. The man has great kickboxing, excellent wrestling and sound grappling. He's the absolute epitome of a well-rounded fighter in 2011. And that well-roundedness gives him the options to find the best way to beat his opposition with the least risk of being beaten.

I never said these things you claim I did.

I never said being wellrounded isnt important. WTF!!

I never said Gsp is not wellrounded. WTF!!

I said that more wellrounded deosnt mean you will win. MMA is just as much about taking people out of their element as it is fighting to your strengths which is what Gsp does anderson silva does but fedor many times didnt do, but he still won anyway. <-------this is my point

Gsp is wellrounded, you see, I think gsp is very wellrounded.

By the way I understand why you want to be skilled in as many areas as you can= be as well rounded as you can. A specialist like maia might still be able to beat you though.
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Old 04-20-2011, 02:43 PM   #112
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Default Re: Can Anderson Silva surpass fedor as the greatest ever?

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Originally Posted by yaca you View Post
My question is if fedor didnt adapt and randy couture and frank shamrock did, how come they kept getting their asses kicked, while fedor only just recently lost?

was he really that much better to begin with?

How come fedor loses coincidentally at the same age that a fighter typically starts his physical decline?

Interesting that the new breed of heavyweights waited until he slowed down. Where were they when he was whoopin ass.

Is fabricio werdum the new breed?

is Antonio silva who was defeated by werdum?

I find this all very interesting???

.....sounds like some smiles and cries to me.
It's all bullshit. Fedor lost for a few reasons, but it had nothing to do with him not adapting! He's the most well rounded heavyweight in the world still.

Loss #1:
He got careless, and caught in a submission after dropping Werdum quickly and going for a quick finish via GnP.

Loss #2:
He was outsized. He has overcome size disadvantages his entire career. But in his current state, Big Foot had too much skill and composure and chin to go along with his size.
And lets not forget that Fedor got whooped, but he finished that fight going for a submission.

I think the most obvious fact is that Fedor got too comfortable on top and lost some motivation. In the past couple years he has not looked like he did in his prime physically.
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Old 04-20-2011, 02:47 PM   #113
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Gsp for instance I feel is not the most well rounded, but he can used his strengths better against your weakness, he can win by transitioning from striking to wrestling and your playing catchup.
Cool story bro.

And no you didn't quite say well roundedness wasn't important but that seemed to be what you were implying. The simple fact is that in your examples a fighter needs to be well-rounded to win against an evenly matched opponent - a striker can't strike if they get taken down, a grappler can't grapple if the fights kept on the feet. Fedor's mental strength was important but he was far away the most well rounded fighter during his peak.
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Old 04-20-2011, 02:49 PM   #114
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how you say he gave up mentaly is odd, when he was still trying to win, fedor was also visibly gassed and output had decreased. Thats why the fight got stood up twice in the third round.
I didnt say give up mentally! I said he wilted due to the pressure he was put under by Fedor. The same way he wilted when Nog got the mount . The same way he wilted when JDS had him up against the cage hitting him with combos. Go look at the Persoh and Berry fights and see the difference in Mirko when he's not under pressure

Quote:
Are you saying he became a better striker after fedor? Because I think his striking skills declined.

yeah, but he dodged more than just the LHK, Cro-cop always had more than this in his arsenal, and none of it worked on fedor. Im sure he trained hard for this fight, but fedor had whole lot to deal with in this matchup, fedor had to get through some really powerful punches and further had to chase down cro-cop to even get inside to land on him.
I never said he had less in his arsenal and I never said he became a better striker. He just used his left more effectively in setting up the lhk. See the 2006 GP for details as I would explain but Id get another 3 paragraph countering things I didnt say and I already know

Quote:
I know they never fought, but he was well rounded and was beat by cro-cop 3 times- also a very smart fighter but was never able to deal with cro-cops far from one-dimensional game, even after fedor did what he did.
I never said anything of the sort either. Just Fedor was slightly better on the feet and Josh preferess to get the takedown. Where was I wrong?
Quote:

Of course specialist lose to well roounded fighter sometimes who the hell said that this is a mathmatical equation? and Belfort was not really a specialist being a bjj blackbelt even though the fought like a pure striker most of the time. But I get your point, that I already knew, and wasnt even contrary to what I said.
Im getting a little annoyed at typing I never said. But... I never said it was a mathematical equations. If anything that was just an example to counter something you said ''if the wellrounded guy gets outstruck he goes for the takedown, but what if he cant get it? striker wins''

Quote:
yeah, but maia vs everyone else, they knew what he had to offer and his weaknesses. Listen Im not saying a specialist beats a wellrounded fighter all the time just that wellroundedness is not all improtatant in MMA like some people act like. Gsp for instance I feel is not the most well rounded, but he can used his strengths better against your weakness, he can win by transitioning from striking to wrestling and your playing catchup.


What's Maia got to do with this anyway?
Quote:
I see, so you missed the point.

fedor has the mentallity to win the fight, the skills he has help him implement that, but they are not necessarily the skillwise.

I remember what trigg said one time about fedor im paraphrasing here "technacally he does alot of things wrong, the doesnt punch right, his submissions arnet technically right, but he wins right." Thats all that matters he knows what to do to get the win, that makes him special
I didnt miss the point, I chose to ignore it as Ive not said anything to the contrary

I ****in hate trying to have a reasonable debate with Fedor nuthuggers, you guys are
something else. You've typed all this bullshit over something I havent even said directl or even intentionally implied. My origianl point was it was the pressure Fedor put Cro Cop under that won him the fight.

Please dont write another 4 paragraph response to this, Ive reiterated my points more than once and Im not interested in doing it again
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Old 04-20-2011, 02:55 PM   #115
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Default Re: Can Anderson Silva surpass fedor as the greatest ever?

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Originally Posted by yaca you View Post
Im not defensive my response was not only to you, it had a wider context.

Im not revising history at all stoo.

You think that the current heavyweight division contains better strikers than mirko in MMA? No.

just so you know, Im not saying you believe that the strikers are better than cro-cop I am asking you if you think they are. Since you try to nitpick. if you agree that they arent better then you agree that fedor would simply have an easier time outstriking them then he did mirko.

It is true that MMA is about wellroundedness now than specialized skills in most ways they are superior to fighters than those who are specialist, but overall doesnt always make them better fighters, the better fighter is the one with his hand raised.

look at brendan vera skillwise he shouldnt have lost to jardine but that doesnt change the fact that he did.
Yeah you are being defensive, and no your not revisiong history your revising my original posts into something they are not.
No Ive never said there are better strikers than Mirko, I said stanards have improved, asin there are more bette strikers in MMA overall. And you are saying Im nitpicking? ok we are done

Vera v Jardine? WTF! has that got to do with this. Bloody Fedor nuthuggers
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Old 04-20-2011, 03:00 PM   #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Will Cooling View Post
Slightly baffled at the idea that being well-rounded isn't important.

The problem with being overly specialised is that it makes you predictable and reliant on keeping the fight in a certain area. If all you can do is grapple then you need to get the fight to the ground, if all you can do is strike then you need to keep it on the feet. That makes you very vulnerable not just to well-rounded opponents but opponents with the skills to take the fight away from your comfort zone. A good recent example of this is Dennis Siver vs. George Sotiropoulos - George just had no plan B when Siver was able to block his takedowns.

Being one-dimensional also means that your opponent have only one thing to worry about countering and so gives them more options when fighting you. So for example if you look at Silva vs. Sonnen, one of the reasons Silva survived Chael's onslaught was because he knew Sonnen had no submission skills. So throughout the fight he was able to give up his back and neck if it meant he was out of range of Sonnen's punches.

And I am stunned at the stupidty of claiming that GSP isn't well-rounded. The man has great kickboxing, excellent wrestling and sound grappling. He's the absolute epitome of a well-rounded fighter in 2011. And that well-roundedness gives him the options to find the best way to beat his opposition with the least risk of being beaten.
Thank you Will, glad you are making the same point I was tryna make. But Yaca has taken this personally and is putting words in my mouth which I dont get
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Old 04-20-2011, 07:03 PM   #117
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Default Re: Can Anderson Silva surpass fedor as the greatest ever?

Takase

Chonan

Nothing he can do will ever erase the shame of losing to them.
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Old 04-20-2011, 10:35 PM   #118
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Default Re: Can Anderson Silva surpass fedor as the greatest ever?

nah man Ross Pointon (4-9) (0-3) hahahaha greatest ever!!! hahahaahaha
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Old 04-21-2011, 02:03 AM   #119
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Default Re: Can Anderson Silva surpass fedor as the greatest ever?

I'm sure starting to think Silva can surpass Fedor in the all time rankings. He's beaten every kind of opponent that has come his way from wrestlers to Brazilian jiujitsuan to dangerous strikers.
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Old 04-21-2011, 08:27 AM   #120
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Default Re: Can Anderson Silva surpass fedor as the greatest ever?

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I didnt say give up mentally! I said he wilted due to the pressure he was put under by Fedor.

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So Mirko's mental deficiencies when he doesn't steamroll guys are being overlooked?
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Originally Posted by Stoo View Post
It's not like Fedor knew what to expect from Mirko is it. He trained well to counter it and Mirko was left without a plan B which is an example of Cro Cop folding mentally.
wtf stoo?


stoo says Im a fedor nuthugger

whats obvious to me is apparently not clear to some like stoo. Fedor career is unsurpassed by gsp or silva or anybody else.

if you look at his career objectively fedor accomplished more than any other mma fighter. Fedor doent have embarassing losses in his peak years like other all time greats. from march 16th, 2003 through june 26th, 2010 fedor was the best heavyweight in the world. He beat everybody who stepped up to challenge him, and the whole world knew that if you could beat fedor you were the best in the world no matter which org you did it in.

dismissing this by calling me a fedor nutthugger doesnt change the facts does it?

Predending I am irrational doesnt make your arguments more rational.

guess what, Anderson silva is my favourite MMA fighter behind sakuraba, but I still can see that fedor has a stronger resume. This is objectivity, that most people have, but somehow you ignore.

the wellroudedness arguments are a distraction to the main point that fedor has something special, more significant to his fighting attributes than simply wellroundedness. Its something more mental, a focus, a drive to win, loads of heart maybe. wellroundedness will not allow him to outstrike one of the best if not the best strikers to ever compete in MMA.

Fedors striking is only overated if it was said he was the best strikers in mma, he is not, but he is among the best.

If your gonna have a mental breakdown when MMA fans say that fedor is the best MMA fighter of all time, then maybe you shouldnt post on a mma forum.
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