ATG Ranking Pacquiao - Page 3

Big George · 04-20-2011, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VecArrow

Top 10.

Top 20 ?!?!

Chempasillo · 04-20-2011, 12:27 PM

I wasnt talking about pac's losses. when did i mention them at all? Neither did i talk about having problems with anyone. while your point is valid its nothing to do with what i said.

Im not having a go at pacquiao at all. IF he defeats floyd then theres a good case to be made to put him in the top 10. in my opinion though if he beats floyd that puts him in the top 15. Thats hardly an insult to the guy is it?
Maybe 5 years after he's retired i'll see things differently and have him in my top 10. Thats usually how it goes. fighters get appreciated more once they are gone.[/quote]

you right, I was talking a bit in general. but for me it is very obvious he is in the top 10, because doing what he did, has never been done. climbing 2,3 or 4 divisions is impressive, but what he did is not far from perfect. didn't emanuel steward they he is better than henry armstrong, who obviously is listed by everyone in the top 4? when a legendary trainer says things like that, than you know, he is realy amongs the best.

ripcity · 04-20-2011, 02:08 PM

Lets see. If he never fights again (Mosley fight gets cancled and he retires). I would say Top 30. Same as if he fights and loses to Mosley. If he beats Mosley and retires Top 25. Same as if he beats Mosley and Loses to Mayweather.
I think some preceptive is needed to answer the question. If Manny Pacquiao beats Shane Mosley and Floyd Mayweather Jr. He's top 10.
I give all my rankings a +/- 5 scale.

bballchump11 · 04-20-2011, 02:15 PM

[url]***********.eastsideboxing.com/forum/showthread.php?t=273560[/url]

bballchump11 · 04-20-2011, 02:29 PM

Now for the people putting top 10, look at this list and tell me that he deserves to be over any of them with a straight face

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Henry Amrstrong
3. Willie Pep
4. Muhammad Ali
5. Harry Greb
6. Roberto Duran
7. Benny Leonard
8. Joe Louis
9. Sam Langford
10. Sugar Ray Leonard

Sorry but I just can't put Pac over any of them

dangerousity · 04-20-2011, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bballchump11

Now for the people putting top 10, look at this list and tell me that he deserves to be over any of them with a straight face

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Henry Amrstrong
3. Willie Pep
4. Muhammad Ali
5. Harry Greb
6. Roberto Duran
7. Benny Leonard
8. Joe Louis
9. Sam Langford
10. Sugar Ray Leonard

Sorry but I just can't put Pac over any of them

Cant talk about the older guys, I wasn't there to get a good feel of how highly regarded their opponents were at the time.

However, lets compare Pac to someone like Ali/Duran who's fights and career I am very familiar with.

Ali's best wins: Foreman, Frazier, Liston.
Durans: SRL, Barkley, de Jesus/Buchanan?
Pac: MAB, Morales/Cotto, JMM.

Foreman at the time was king of HW but went on to have tough fights with Lyle and Young. I think MAB was an equally as good a FW as Foreman was a HW and p4p better than de jesus and Barkley. Again, the rest of the fighters are on about even terms. The smaller fighters achieved just as much as those HW's, just not as popular because of different era and lower weight class.

Was Duran beating Barkley in a very tough fight in Durans 5th championship weight class much more impressive than Pac demolishing Cotto in his 7th championship weight class?

On top of that they all have great achievements. Ali the first 3 time HW champ. Pac first 8 division champ, 4 weight lineal champ. They all have a host of top contenders and a few great fighters on their list.

Duran simply has SRL who is the best win on anyones list however in terms of other top fighters they beat, Pac has more. Take out SRL for example and Duran has wins over:

Buchanan
Esteban de Jesus
Davey Moore
Barkley
Cuevas

In his prime or whilst he was still one of the top fighters in the game he would have losses to De Jesus, Laing, Benitez and SRL.

Pac would have a loss to Morales and draw with JMM. He has those 2 early losses extremely early in career.

So we take out MAB, Pac's best win and we still have:
Cotto
Morales
JMM
Hatton
Ledwaba
Sasakul
Larios
ODLH
Clottey
Margarito

I dont think champs and former champs such as Larios/Margo/Sasakul etc are far off from the likes of Moore and Cuevas hence why I mentioned them.

As you can see, Duran is 6th on your list. Whether you agree or disagree, one can easily make a strong case for Pac having a better resume than Duran or equal, therefore a good reason to have Pac placed inside top 10.

Montero · 04-20-2011, 02:54 PM

Anybody that voted anything other than top ten is just a hater. If Pacquiao actually gets Mayweather in the ring and becomes the first man to (officially) beat him - especially if he's dominant - he'd have to be a top ten lock. He's already done so much over numerous divisions; he's got several HOF fighters on his resume, and a few ATGs as well. To hand an ATG his first and only (official) loss would be huge.

sosolid4u09 · 04-20-2011, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bballchump11

Now for the people putting top 10, look at this list and tell me that he deserves to be over any of them with a straight face

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Henry Amrstrong
3. Willie Pep
4. Muhammad Ali
5. Harry Greb
6. Roberto Duran
7. Benny Leonard
8. Joe Louis
9. Sam Langford
10. Sugar Ray Leonard

Sorry but I just can't put Pac over any of them

my point exactly. But we'll be labelled flomo's. and called black. coz we dont have pac in the top 10

dangerousity · 04-20-2011, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sosolid4u09

my point exactly. But we'll be labelled flomo's. and called black. coz we dont have pac in the top 10

Not really, thats a respectable list, I have no problem with that whatsoever. However as in the case I made, Pac can easily belong in that list and it wont be absurd either. ATG rankings are so subjective that fighters can reach a certain level and be easily in and out of that list, depending on how people view and perceive the fighters victories.

KO-KING · 04-20-2011, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chempasillo

sugar is between 11-13. talentwise top 3, easy...

he beat benitez, duran, hagler, hearns.

KO-KING · 04-20-2011, 03:30 PM

i wouldnt have langford in top ten as many of you do

LancsTerrible · 04-20-2011, 03:32 PM

Do you put him over Michael Spinks or not? The great weight jumper with a steady and solid number of wins?...or the greatest light-heavyweight of all time with a few less very good wins as Manny has, but holds the greatest win of all time in my opinion.

I think Emmanuel is around the great Michael.

caneman · 04-20-2011, 03:34 PM

Pacquiao's ATG ranking won't move if he beats Floyd.

KO-KING · 04-20-2011, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LancsTerrible

Do you put him over Michael Spinks or not? The great weight jumper with a steady and solid number of wins?...or the greatest light-heavyweight of all time with a few less very good wins as Manny has, but holds the greatest win of all time in my opinion.

I think Emmanuel is around the great Michael.

Higher than Spinks

Bogotazo · 04-20-2011, 03:40 PM

Not having the highest opinion of Floyd, I don't think it bumps him up more than five spots. I'd have him at top 15 the highest, admitting I don't know enough about old fighters to make a proper list. I do know, however, that his best so far win doesn't compare with a lot of ATG's, even if his weight jumps and accumulation of opponents have been impressive.

View Poll Results: Ranking
Top 10	139	45.13%
Top 15	73	23.70%
25=>	55	17.86%
25<	41	13.31%
Voters: 308. You may not vote on this poll

04-20-2011, 12:27 PM	#32
Chempasillo Belt holder ESB Addict Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 3,217 vCash: 322	Re: ATG Ranking Pacquiao I wasnt talking about pac's losses. when did i mention them at all? Neither did i talk about having problems with anyone. while your point is valid its nothing to do with what i said. Im not having a go at pacquiao at all. IF he defeats floyd then theres a good case to be made to put him in the top 10. in my opinion though if he beats floyd that puts him in the top 15. Thats hardly an insult to the guy is it? Maybe 5 years after he's retired i'll see things differently and have him in my top 10. Thats usually how it goes. fighters get appreciated more once they are gone.[/quote] you right, I was talking a bit in general. but for me it is very obvious he is in the top 10, because doing what he did, has never been done. climbing 2,3 or 4 divisions is impressive, but what he did is not far from perfect. didn't emanuel steward they he is better than henry armstrong, who obviously is listed by everyone in the top 4? when a legendary trainer says things like that, than you know, he is realy amongs the best.
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04-20-2011, 02:08 PM	#33
ripcity Undisputed Champion East Side VIP Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: "Somebody may beat me, but they are going to have to bleed to do it." Posts: 10,003 vCash: 845	Re: ATG Ranking Pacquiao Lets see. If he never fights again (Mosley fight gets cancled and he retires). I would say Top 30. Same as if he fights and loses to Mosley. If he beats Mosley and retires Top 25. Same as if he beats Mosley and Loses to Mayweather. I think some preceptive is needed to answer the question. If Manny Pacquiao beats Shane Mosley and Floyd Mayweather Jr. He's top 10. I give all my rankings a +/- 5 scale.
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04-20-2011, 02:15 PM	#34
bballchump11 P4P King East Side VIP Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: GA Posts: 28,467 vCash: 524	Re: ATG Ranking Pacquiao [url]***********.eastsideboxing.com/forum/showthread.php?t=273560[/url]
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04-20-2011, 02:29 PM	#35
bballchump11 P4P King East Side VIP Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: GA Posts: 28,467 vCash: 524	Re: ATG Ranking Pacquiao Now for the people putting top 10, look at this list and tell me that he deserves to be over any of them with a straight face 1. Sugar Ray Robinson 2. Henry Amrstrong 3. Willie Pep 4. Muhammad Ali 5. Harry Greb 6. Roberto Duran 7. Benny Leonard 8. Joe Louis 9. Sam Langford 10. Sugar Ray Leonard Sorry but I just can't put Pac over any of them
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04-20-2011, 02:54 PM	#37
Montero Left Hook from HELL!!! East Side Guru Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 7,320 vCash: 1000	Re: ATG Ranking Pacquiao Anybody that voted anything other than top ten is just a hater. If Pacquiao actually gets Mayweather in the ring and becomes the first man to (officially) beat him - especially if he's dominant - he'd have to be a top ten lock. He's already done so much over numerous divisions; he's got several HOF fighters on his resume, and a few ATGs as well. To hand an ATG his first and only (official) loss would be huge.
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04-20-2011, 03:30 PM	#41
KO-KING Belt holder ESB Addict Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: http://epichouseprojects.blogspot.com/ Posts: 3,613 vCash: 84	Re: ATG Ranking Pacquiao i wouldnt have langford in top ten as many of you do
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04-20-2011, 03:32 PM	#42
LancsTerrible Different Forms of Game. ESB Addict Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: King of Mexico. Posts: 4,331 vCash: 2238	Re: ATG Ranking Pacquiao Do you put him over Michael Spinks or not? The great weight jumper with a steady and solid number of wins?...or the greatest light-heavyweight of all time with a few less very good wins as Manny has, but holds the greatest win of all time in my opinion. I think Emmanuel is around the great Michael.
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04-20-2011, 03:34 PM	#43
caneman 100% AllNatural Xylocaine East Side Guru Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 8,241 vCash: 1000	Re: ATG Ranking Pacquiao Pacquiao's ATG ranking won't move if he beats Floyd.
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04-20-2011, 03:40 PM	#45
Bogotazo Amateur East Side VIP Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: New York Posts: 14,638 vCash: 75	Re: ATG Ranking Pacquiao Not having the highest opinion of Floyd, I don't think it bumps him up more than five spots. I'd have him at top 15 the highest, admitting I don't know enough about old fighters to make a proper list. I do know, however, that his best so far win doesn't compare with a lot of ATG's, even if his weight jumps and accumulation of opponents have been impressive.
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