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Old 11-24-2007, 12:54 PM   #16
Amsterdam
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Default Re: Most overrated old-timer?

Bivins is overrated, many consider him a true HOF worthy fighter, a 'near great' if you will. I consider him B level.
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Old 11-24-2007, 12:57 PM   #17
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Default Re: Most overrated old-timer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manassa
I suppose you think he fought out of a crouch as well? And carried a grizzly bear on his back from British Columbia to New York?
It was not your typical crouch, more of a half, bent-over hybrid off a sideways stance.

Jeffries used his fast feet to close the gap between himself and his rival; even in his bout with iron man, Tom Sharkey there is plenty of anticipatory and fencing like manoeuvres before they commit themselves, which was a trademark of the era.

You can be partial to a bit of hero worship with these superhero like 'oldies', but Ted Spoon relegates himself to applying the available material on these men into probable outcomes and theories -- Maybe Jeffries could tame a Great White, but that's another story that does not, or at least shouldn't, effect the fighter.
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Old 11-24-2007, 01:02 PM   #18
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Default Re: Most overrated old-timer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain
I see him as high as three sometimes. That's madness.
not in a head to head sense it isn't. and u said "some times" , not always
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Old 11-24-2007, 01:05 PM   #19
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Default Re: Most overrated old-timer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain
Big thing that. I understand it too. Those few minutes are absolutley thrilling. The guy from the first round....is there anything even romotely comparable on film?

I have him at 12 or 13, I don't feel the least bit bad about it. But maybe unlike you Chris, i'm a bit of a Dempsey fan. I do understand why people get so into it. I do understand why he's overated.

But I feel that he is, and I think the Willard film is his main reason for this.
Yup. Maybe part of the reason for this is the image he had and the time he lived in. The Roaring Twenties and all that. He was the perfect swashbuckling tough hero to fit the times. No one could live up to that superman image.
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Old 11-24-2007, 01:10 PM   #20
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Default Re: Most overrated old-timer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain
I have him at 12 or 13, I don't feel the least bit bad about it. But maybe unlike you Chris, i'm a bit of a Dempsey fan.
I'm not much of a Dempsey fan, but i would have him higher than you though. Probably borderline top10 just below Mikey.



On the Willard film.. if this was a modern fight (and by that i mean the 40's or later), it would've probably been stopped after the first or second knockdown and he'd have gotten a count instead of that ridiculous "punch the shit out of him when he's on more than one knee".

Personally i am much more thrilled by seeing what appears to be an indestructible, relentless, punching machine not giving great lightheavyweight Bob Foster and inch of space and knocking him out with a perfect double left hook. Interestingly, Ali took exactly the same double left hook in round 2 of his first fight with Frazier. Goes to show you the difference in durability between a LHW and a HW.
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Old 11-24-2007, 01:12 PM   #21
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Default Re: Most overrated old-timer?

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Originally Posted by dmt
not in a head to head sense it isn't. and u said "some times" , not always
I don't think 6 is a reasonable rating, personally. So I personally think that he is generally overated. And head to head, 3 is a ridiculous placing. Dempsey is a cracking puncher, but when he misses he is horribley vulnerable. Jack Johnson's surmise of him as a "three round fighter" has some truth to it.

Dempsey could be outboxed - Ali, Holmes, Tunney - and outpunched - Tyson, Louis, very nearly Firpo. There are not many ATG HW's I pick this 180 pounder to beat actually. I'd make him a favourite over Foreman and maybe Marciano, that's about it for the guys I have above him.
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Old 11-24-2007, 01:40 PM   #22
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Default Re: Most overrated old-timer?

Ezzard Charles. I do rate him, but he's consistently rated too high as an all-time great "pound for pound" fighter IMO.
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Old 11-24-2007, 01:54 PM   #23
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Default Re: Most overrated old-timer?

Who was the most over rated old-timer? There are many. One can still be great and over rated.

Pre 1960, here are my picks of over rated greats:

Heavy: Jack Johnson, Jersey Joe Walcott
Light heavy: Jimmy Bivins
Middle: Bobo Olsen, Stanley Ketchel
Welter: Emile Griffith
Light weight: Battling Nelson
Feather weight: Johnny Dundee
Bantam: George Dixon
Fly: Joseph Robert Loscalzo...AKA Midget Walgast
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Old 11-24-2007, 01:58 PM   #24
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Default Re: Most overrated old-timer?

Interesting list Mendoza. As you know, I don't agree with your Johnson pick - I think you might be onto something as far as Walcott goes, although he was an awkward customer.

Tell me why you think Nelson was overated and also what you make of Bivins the MW.
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Old 11-24-2007, 01:59 PM   #25
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Default Re: Most overrated old-timer?

Jack Dempsey
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Old 11-24-2007, 02:04 PM   #26
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Default Re: Most overrated old-timer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain
Interesting list Mendoza. As you know, I don't agree with your Johnson pick - I think you might be onto something as far as Walcott goes, although he was an awkward customer.

Tell me why you think Nelson was overated and also what you make of Bivins the MW.
Hopefully I can avoid a long Johnson thread. I've already stated my position that he's a bit chinny, doesn't throw many punches, and had a very poor title run as champion vs tier two opposition.

Nelson was a human punching bag who could wear a man out over man rounds. However, the lighter weights are more about skills and speed than durability. Nelson was lacking here.

Bivins was beaten by 18 different fighters. I picked Bivins at Light heavyweight. I don't think Bivins was great enough at middle to be over rated.
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Old 11-24-2007, 02:07 PM   #27
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Default Re: Most overrated old-timer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza
Nelson was a human punching bag who could wear a man out over man rounds. However, the lighter weights are more about skills and speed than durability. Nelson was lacking here.
Durability is a factor though - and extreme durability is certainly a huge advantage in boxing. Why is it different to Tyson's speed or Barrera's adaptability as a source from which to draw victory?

Quote:
Bivins was beaten by 18 different fighters. I picked Bivins at Light heavyweight. I don't think Bivins was great enough at middle to be over rated.

Yes - high level of comp though, and apparantley he was something very special before his stint in the army, which saw him hurt and supposedly he was never teh same. An interesting subject Bivins.
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Old 11-24-2007, 02:13 PM   #28
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Default Re: Most overrated old-timer?

Quote:
McGrain Durability is a factor though - and extreme durability is certainly a huge advantage in boxing. Why is it different to Tyson's speed or Barrera's adaptability as a source from which to draw victory?
Nelson did not have big time power or skills. His game would be far less in a 15 or 12 round era.

Quote:
Yes - high level of comp though, and apparantley he was something very special before his stint in the army, which saw him hurt and supposedly he was never the same. An interesting subject Bivins.
W.W II took a lot away from fighters. Bivins to me was vunerable to many styles.

1 ) He lacked the power to keep the stronger fighters off him. Swamers ate him up.

2 ) He lacked the raw speed to out speed the speedsters, though he was pretty fast himself.

3 ) His chin was somewhat shaky chin and cost him vs punchers. Bivins was down a lot. Perhaps more than Charles.

Bivins was a good fighter, I just think he is an over rated hall of fame fighter.
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Old 11-24-2007, 02:15 PM   #29
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Default Re: Most overrated old-timer?

Yes, he certainly has "in-between" skills. Some good wins though. I personally think he may have been quite special, though I will agree he never really proved himself a great fighter.

Some nice wins though.
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Old 11-24-2007, 02:48 PM   #30
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Default Re: Most overrated old-timer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manassa
Well, according to people like Janitor, Jeffries was a big, mean, athletic, hard hitting fighter who would beat Lennox Lewis, Sonny Liston and the like. No. A young, healthy Jeffries had his bones broken by a super middleweight (Fitzsimmons; the second most overrated fighter) and was clearly losing until he got lucky.
I would say that Jeffries is one of the most under rated heavyweight champions.

Dont forgett that he was widley seen as the GOAT untill Joe Louis came allong. You dont get that kind of reputation without serious substence.

Bob Fitzsimmons is perhaps the most under rated heavyweight champion of all time. Today most people would rate him beneath Max Schmeling or Max Baer while in their day he was seen as a lock for a top 10 slot.

Personaly I think that young Jeffries with a dozen profesional fights to his name was being thrown to the wolves against Bob Fitzsimmons who was at the time the most dangerous fighter in the world.
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