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Old 11-24-2007, 02:50 PM   #31
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Default Re: Most overrated old-timer?

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Originally Posted by Amsterdam
Bivins is overrated, many consider him a true HOF worthy fighter, a 'near great' if you will. I consider him B level.
It is probably fair to say that Bivins was at one point the best heavyweight breathing apart from Louis on top of being the best light heavyweight.

That is not a B level fighter.
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Old 11-24-2007, 02:54 PM   #32
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Default Re: Most overrated old-timer?

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Originally Posted by ChrisPontius
I would say Dempsey. Too many rate him high 'because everyone does' (just like they did in the 50's) or merely on his brutal destruction of Willard.


Some have him in the top3 or top5 which is higher than his accomplishments allow him to be in my opinion. Unless you're ranking on historical standing, first million dollar gate, record for avoiding a challenger for the longest period of time, etc etc.
I can understand the criticisms of Dempsey based on his paper resume.

People at the time rated him because they knew that head to head he was a god. the more I learn about him the more chillingly true the acolades ring.
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Old 11-24-2007, 03:15 PM   #33
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Default Re: Most overrated old-timer?

Jack Johnson is vastly over-rated. I would pick many modern day middleweights to defeat, if not KO, him.

Last edited by Seamus; 11-24-2007 at 05:42 PM.
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Old 11-24-2007, 03:19 PM   #34
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Default Re: Most overrated old-timer?

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Originally Posted by Seamus
Jack Johnson is vastly over-rated. I would pick many modern day middleweights to defeat, in not KO, him.
That's ludicrous. Also, there shouldn't be a coma between "KO" and "him".
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Old 11-24-2007, 03:42 PM   #35
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Default Re: Most overrated old-timer?

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Originally Posted by Ted Spoon
Fitzsimmons was a scientist when it came to punching and he sported weighted gloves in this fight.

Jeffries did not march into his opponents until he won, he kept his distance and then pounced.

Contrary to the fabled belief of Jeffries blood-n-guts way winning the day, these bouts were full of skill - quick, feinting movements by Jeffries while looking to maul, and Fitzsimmons anticipating and spearing his larger adversary to keep him away.

They were high-octaine fights.
You saw this for yourself on film or are you relying on eye witness reports ?.

Eye witness reports a 100 years old are not very reliable .
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Old 11-24-2007, 03:42 PM   #36
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Default Re: Most overrated old-timer?

John L. Sullivan.
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Old 11-24-2007, 03:46 PM   #37
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Default Re: Most overrated old-timer?

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Originally Posted by C. M. Clay II
John L. Sullivan.
Dead wrong.

Many people myself included have entertained the idea that Sullivan was a glorified bar brawler and that Jim Corbett was the first reall heavyweight. It becomes aparent on closer analysis that he was a level above Corbett or Fitzsimmons at his peak and probably on a par with Jeffries.
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Old 11-24-2007, 03:46 PM   #38
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Default Re: Most overrated old-timer?

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Originally Posted by godking
You saw this for yourself on film or are you relying on eye witness reports ?.

Eye witness reports a 100 years old are not very reliable .
Yes they are.

But if they all say the same thing you have to take notice.
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Old 11-24-2007, 04:09 PM   #39
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Default Re: Most overrated old-timer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor
I can understand the criticisms of Dempsey based on his paper resume.

People at the time rated him because they knew that head to head he was a god. the more I learn about him the more chillingly true the acolades ring.
you say "knew" asif it was a fact.

At any rate, his struggles with mediocrities like Firpo and or fights against better opposition like Sharkey and Tunney show that he was a demigod at best.


Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor
I would say that Jeffries is one of the most under rated heavyweight champions.

Dont forgett that he was widley seen as the GOAT untill Joe Louis came allong. You dont get that kind of reputation without serious substence.

Bob Fitzsimmons is perhaps the most under rated heavyweight champion of all time. Today most people would rate him beneath Max Schmeling or Max Baer while in their day he was seen as a lock for a top 10 slot.

Personaly I think that young Jeffries with a dozen profesional fights to his name was being thrown to the wolves against Bob Fitzsimmons who was at the time the most dangerous fighter in the world.
If a 168 pound fighter is the most dangerous fighter in the world (all weight classes), then i think you have your answer as to why he's seen as overrated. If that same fighter also takes a shitload of punishement against basically every opponent, then you have even more evidence for that.

In the day he may have been a lock for the top10, sure. But back then he didn't have an additional 70 years of great champions to compete with.
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Old 11-24-2007, 04:13 PM   #40
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Default Re: Most overrated old-timer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor
Yes they are.

But if they all say the same thing you have to take notice.
Eye witness reports from 100 years ago when it comes to boxing are not reliable because they make their judgement to different standards.

I've made the comparison before and i'll make it again: if you would read about one of the cars that Jack Johnson drove, you'll read that it was very fast, cool looking, had great agility and was the best in the world.
If you'd then read that the same car goes no faster than 50 km/h and is worse than a 1000 dollar car today performance-wise, then you will know how much an eyewitness account means.

They judge him in the knowledge that they have. Back then, combinations were rare. Jabbing was rare. Fighting tall and keeping your distance was rarely used. Glove blocked was rarely used. Wrestling and clinching was done all the time. All of that because gloved boxing was more or less bareknuckle boxing in a transition.
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Old 11-24-2007, 04:22 PM   #41
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Default Re: Most overrated old-timer?

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisPontius
you say "knew" asif it was a fact.
They knew alright. You could deconstruct all Tysons opponents 100 years from now but you have to put yourself on the ground at the time. The fact is that when Dempsey went toe to toe with Fulton for example, it was to determine who was the best challenger of the period.

Half the general forum at the time would have picked Fulton.

Quote:
At any rate, his struggles with mediocrities like Firpo and or fights against better opposition like Sharkey and Tunney show that he was a demigod at best.
When he fought Tunney and Sharkey he was virtualy a shell.

If guys like Miske and Gibbons got their chance against that version of Dempsey we would probably be talking about them today.

Quote:
If a 168 pound fighter is the most dangerous fighter in the world (all weight classes),
Fitzsimmons is not just a 168 pound fighter. The more I learn abot him the more I see this. He would have been the man in a lot of eras.

He is one of the better finishers in the history of the heavyweight division. I shit you not.

Quote:
If that same fighter also takes a shitload of punishement against basically every opponent, then you have even more evidence for that.
Did he though?

That is the way the stories get retold but if you look into it in detail you often see a completely diferent series of events.

The first Fitzsimmons fight particularly seems to have been verry diferent to how it is often portrayed.

In any event he was a kid with a dozen profesional fights who had to learn his trade on the job as champion.

Quote:
In the day he may have been a lock for the top10, sure. But back then he didn't have an additional 70 years of great champions to compete with.
Some of the people who saw Jeffries lived into the 70s and still rated him.
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Old 11-24-2007, 04:22 PM   #42
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Default Re: Most overrated old-timer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dmt
Manassa,

Jeffries was very young and green when he met Fitz.

Not the second time. He was 27 and would only fight three more fights in total.
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Old 11-24-2007, 04:24 PM   #43
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Default Re: Most overrated old-timer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza
Who was the most over rated old-timer? There are many. One can still be great and over rated.

Pre 1960, here are my picks of over rated greats:

Heavy: Jack Johnson, Jersey Joe Walcott
Light heavy: Jimmy Bivins
Middle: Bobo Olsen, Stanley Ketchel
Welter: Emile Griffith
Light weight: Battling Nelson
Feather weight: Johnny Dundee
Bantam: George Dixon
Fly: Joseph Robert Loscalzo...AKA Midget Walgast
I'm curious as to why you would consider Dixon overrated at bantamweight, save for the fact that he didn't really stay in that division for very long.
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Old 11-24-2007, 04:33 PM   #44
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Default Re: Most overrated old-timer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seamus
Jack Johnson is vastly over-rated. I would pick many modern day middleweights to defeat, in not KO, him.
Sure they would, even though the hardest punching middleweight ever got toyed like a child by him, huh?
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Old 11-24-2007, 04:34 PM   #45
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Default Re: Most overrated old-timer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza
Nelson did not have big time power or skills. His game would be far less in a 15 or 12 round era.



W.W II took a lot away from fighters. Bivins to me was vunerable to many styles.

1 ) He lacked the power to keep the stronger fighters off him. Swamers ate him up.

2 ) He lacked the raw speed to out speed the speedsters, though he was pretty fast himself.

3 ) His chin was somewhat shaky chin and cost him vs punchers. Bivins was down a lot. Perhaps more than Charles.

Bivins was a good fighter, I just think he is an over rated hall of fame fighter.
Could you give the name of a swarmer who ate him up, expecially in his prime.

The only punchers who stopped him were Lem Franklin, who had about 30 lbs on him, plus Charles and Moore (3 times). Bivins seems to have had trouble with men who were excellent boxers and had a big punch. I think most fighters have problems with anyone who fits that description.
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