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Old 11-24-2007, 04:35 PM   #46
janitor
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Default Re: Most overrated old-timer?

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisPontius
Eye witness reports from 100 years ago when it comes to boxing are not reliable because they make their judgement to different standards.

I've made the comparison before and i'll make it again: if you would read about one of the cars that Jack Johnson drove, you'll read that it was very fast, cool looking, had great agility and was the best in the world.
If you'd then read that the same car goes no faster than 50 km/h and is worse than a 1000 dollar car today performance-wise, then you will know how much an eyewitness account means.
I see where you are coming from but-

Say that one of those reporters lives into the 1990s. Nobody is going to be so delusional that they think that Jack Johnsons car would beat a Jaguar XJ220 in a race. Now if they all say it would you have to take notice. Furthermore sombody might have timed Johnsons car and shown that it could do 0-60 in 4 seconds.#

That is the situation you have.

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They judge him in the knowledge that they have. Back then, combinations were rare.
Jem Mace was prety handy with his combinations to be honest. He really founded modern boxing technique.

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Jabbing was rare.
No.

Fighters just knew how to counter it so it was less rewarding.

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Fighting tall and keeping your distance was rarely used.
I can asure you that it was fully used in brawling by this time never mind boxing.

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Glove blocked was rarely used.
It was probably used more than at any time since.

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Wrestling and clinching was done all the time.
The rules made it more favourable.

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All of that because gloved boxing was more or less bareknuckle boxing in a transition.
No

This is true of Corbett and Fitzsimmons but Jeffries was the first heavyweight champion who used a style based entirley on gloved boxing. Not that it prevented the bare knuckle stance masters from landing on him.
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Old 11-24-2007, 05:03 PM   #47
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Default Re: Most overrated old-timer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor

I see where you are coming from but-

Say that one of those reporters lives into the 1990s. Nobody is going to be so delusional that they think that Jack Johnsons car would beat a Jaguar XJ220 in a race. Now if they all say it would you have to take notice. Furthermore sombody might have timed Johnsons car and shown that it could do 0-60 in 4 seconds.#

That is the situation you have.
And what if that reporter was stuck in the past? What if he ranked a good car from Johnson's era over a car from the 50's that was bigger and never lost a fight? Fleischer ranked Marciano #10 and Fitzsimmons #3. Go figure.


Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor
Jem Mace was prety handy with his combinations to be honest. He really founded modern boxing technique.
Who is Jem Mace? I'm talking about Fitzsimmons, Jeffries, Corbett, Johnson, Willard et al.

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor
No.

Fighters just knew how to counter it so it was less rewarding.
You're telling me those fighters knew how to counter punch so that's why no one jabbed back then? Watch a Johnson fight. They couldn't counterpunch a long punch to save their lifes. They could throw a punch after taking one, if that's counter punching to you then they could.

What you suggest is that the primitive (for gloved boxing) fighters of the 1890's, 1900's and 1910's had an astonishingly effective way to counter jabs, to such extent that they didn't use it, yet somehow that technique was lost and never recovered in the 90 years of gloved boxing after, causing primitive fighters after them like Robinson, Louis, Ali and Lewis to have a great jab ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor
I can asure you that it was fully used in brawling by this time never mind boxing.
Well i've never seen it on film. I don't believe in fairy tales. They're not reliable.


Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor
It was probably used more than at any time since.
No it wasn't. They kept their hands low very often and their gloves were very small so it was less effective. What's more - in bareknuckle boxing, the style they came from, it was completely absent because there were no gloves. There is your explanation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor
The rules made it more favourable.
Yes indeed. And it is for this reason that Johnson would drown against skilled boxers under post 30's rules. And vice versa.


Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor
No

This is true of Corbett and Fitzsimmons but Jeffries was the first heavyweight champion who used a style based entirley on gloved boxing. Not that it prevented the bare knuckle stance masters from landing on him.
This is contradicted by the film of him and the fact that fighters after him, say, Johnson, still had a primitive style whereas the fighters after Johnson had a more modern, gloved style.
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Old 11-24-2007, 05:07 PM   #48
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Default Re: Most overrated old-timer?

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Originally Posted by janitor
They knew alright. You could deconstruct all Tysons opponents 100 years from now but you have to put yourself on the ground at the time. The fact is that when Dempsey went toe to toe with Fulton for example, it was to determine who was the best challenger of the period.


Half the general forum at the time would have picked Fulton.
That doesn't speak well for him. Imagine Tyson being 50/50 with Tucker or Thomas.


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Originally Posted by janitor
When he fought Tunney and Sharkey he was virtualy a shell.
Maybe so, but they were also his best opponents.

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If guys like Miske and Gibbons got their chance against that version of Dempsey we would probably be talking about them today.
There is some truth to this although it is also speculation. However, what does it say about Dempsey that he is completely dominated twice by Tunney (who almost no HW record to speak off outside of Dempsey) or Sharkey, who was very inconsistent as well?

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor
Fitzsimmons is not just a 168 pound fighter. The more I learn abot him the more I see this. He would have been the man in a lot of eras.
How often since then has a 168'er been the baddest man? Not once. Awfully poor heavyweight division is the only logical conclusion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor
Did he though?

That is the way the stories get retold but if you look into it in detail you often see a completely diferent series of events.

The first Fitzsimmons fight particularly seems to have been verry diferent to how it is often portrayed.

In any event he was a kid with a dozen profesional fights who had to learn his trade on the job as champion.
Well he was pretty far into his career when he still took a beating from Fitzsimmons.

I would be interested to hear your completely different series of events, though.
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Old 11-24-2007, 05:27 PM   #49
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Default Re: Most overrated old-timer?

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Originally Posted by McGrain
That's ludicrous. Also, there shouldn't be a coma between "KO" and "him".

A small man rolling his fists like Popeye and beating guys who wouldn't even make it out of my local bar impresses me little.
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Old 11-24-2007, 05:32 PM   #50
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Default Re: Most overrated old-timer?

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisPontius
And what if that reporter was stuck in the past? What if he ranked a good car from Johnson's era over a car from the 50's that was bigger and never lost a fight?
No motor journalist ever did however delusional he was.

What dose that tell you?

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Fleischer ranked Marciano #10 and Fitzsimmons #3. Go figure.
To play devils advocate, perhaps I should figure that Fitzsimmons was better than Marciano.

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Who is Jem Mace? I'm talking about Fitzsimmons, Jeffries, Corbett, Johnson, Willard et al.
Jem Mace is the founder of modern boxing technique.

All roads ultimately lead back to Jem Mace.

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You're telling me those fighters knew how to counter punch so that's why no one jabbed back then? Watch a Johnson fight.
Yes quite frankly. The jab is not the wonder weapon of modern boxing method, it is its achilies heel.

Jack Johnson was able to produce the formula for beating Joe Louis based on his jab. That should tell you something.

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What you suggest is that the primitive (for gloved boxing) fighters of the 1890's, 1900's and 1910's had an astonishingly effective way to counter jabs, to such extent that they didn't use it,
Yes quite frankly.

If fighter A wins a fight using mainly the jab it says more about fighter B than fighter A.

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yet somehow that technique was lost and never recovered in the 90 years of gloved boxing after, causing primitive fighters after them like Robinson, Louis, Ali and Lewis to have a great jab ?
Techniques get lost. Absolutely.

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Well i've never seen it on film. I don't believe in fairy tales. They're not reliable.
Mate, any guy with long arms and an IQ of 90+ learns to use their reach advantage in a brawl by the time they are 12.

You can asume that this option was explored extensivley by the fighters of the period.


Quote:
No it wasn't. They kept their hands low very often and their gloves were very small so it was less effective. What's more - in bareknuckle boxing, the style they came from, it was completely absent because there were no gloves. There is your explanati
Has anybody ever made better use of glove blocking than Jack Johnson?

Even theoreticaly.

Quote:
Yes indeed. And it is for this reason that Johnson would drown against skilled boxers under post 30's rules. And vice versa.
Johnson at the age of 50 was beating up top heavyweights of the 30s. At this stage it was a hobby.
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Old 11-24-2007, 05:49 PM   #51
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Default Re: Most overrated old-timer?

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Originally Posted by ChrisPontius
That doesn't speak well for him. Imagine Tyson being 50/50 with Tucker or Thomas.
You are being more than pedantic here.

Imagine if Tyson had blasted Tucker out in under a minute?

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Maybe so, but they were also his best opponents.
Were they though, or just the ones that were lucky enough to get him when he was shot?
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Old 11-24-2007, 05:54 PM   #52
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Default Re: Most overrated old-timer?

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisPontius
There is some truth to this although it is also speculation. However, what does it say about Dempsey that he is completely dominated twice by Tunney (who almost no HW record to speak off outside of Dempsey) or Sharkey, who was very inconsistent as well?
Tunneys heavyweight record is much better if you actualy look at it. He had about 14 heavyweight fights and won them all.

Quote:
How often since then has a 168'er been the baddest man? Not once. Awfully poor heavyweight division is the only logical conclusion.
My conclusion is that there hapened to be a 168'er who just hapened to be hell on weels.

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I would be interested to hear your completely different series of events, though.
I have heard acounts suggesting that Jeffries took some punishment but easily and deliberately controled the fight.
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Old 11-24-2007, 06:36 PM   #53
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Default Re: Most overrated old-timer?

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Originally Posted by McGrain
I don't think 6 is a reasonable rating, personally. So I personally think that he is generally overated. And head to head, 3 is a ridiculous placing. Dempsey is a cracking puncher, but when he misses he is horribley vulnerable. Jack Johnson's surmise of him as a "three round fighter" has some truth to it.

Dempsey could be outboxed - Ali, Holmes, Tunney - and outpunched - Tyson, Louis, very nearly Firpo. There are not many ATG HW's I pick this 180 pounder to beat actually. I'd make him a favourite over Foreman and maybe Marciano, that's about it for the guys I have above him.
You would make Dempsey favourite over Foreman head to head? I'd be interested to hear why McGrain, I'm the total opposite I feel Foreman would blow Dempsey out fairly early.
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Old 11-24-2007, 06:44 PM   #54
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Default Re: Most overrated old-timer?

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Originally Posted by garymcfall
You would make Dempsey favourite over Foreman head to head? I'd be interested to hear why McGrain, I'm the total opposite I feel Foreman would blow Dempsey out fairly early.
Makes sense to me, Dempsey always was good against big, slow fighters.
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Old 11-24-2007, 06:46 PM   #55
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Default Re: Most overrated old-timer?

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Originally Posted by Robbi
Ezzard Charles. I do rate him, but he's consistently rated too high as an all-time great "pound for pound" fighter IMO.
Explain. I have him #6 all time P4P. He certainly deserves to be among the very best, easily one of the best resumes of all time.
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Old 11-24-2007, 07:55 PM   #56
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Default Re: Most overrated old-timer?

Jack Johnson.
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Old 11-25-2007, 12:17 AM   #57
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Default Re: Most overrated old-timer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza
Who was the most over rated old-timer? There are many. One can still be great and over rated.

Pre 1960, here are my picks of over rated greats:

Heavy: Jack Johnson, Jersey Joe Walcott
Light heavy: Jimmy Bivins
Middle: Bobo Olsen, Stanley Ketchel
Welter: Emile Griffith
Light weight: Battling Nelson
Feather weight: Johnny Dundee
Bantam: George Dixon
Fly: Joseph Robert Loscalzo...AKA Midget Walgast
I don't see the argument for Bivins as overrated at all. As I said on another post, about 75 of his fights were against men who were rated in the Ring Magazine yearly rankings at one time or another--2/3 of all his fights, which in sheer volume and percentage has to be near the top of anyone at all and up there with Langford among non-champions. Bivins might have faced the toughest opposition of anyone. He defeated eight world champions, including Bettina, Christoforidis, Lesnevich, Maxim, and Moore among the lightheavies. This includes every champion from 1939 to 1962 except Conn and Mills, neither of whom fought him. He also defeated the uncrowned champion, Charles. And Bivins badly defeated the incumbent champion, Lesnevich, in 1942 in a non-title fight while never getting a shot at the title.

You mention he lost to 18 different men. He also defeated ten of those men and proved himself superior to several of them, such as Christoforidis.

On balance, he certainly deserves his Hall-of-Fame position. He did a lot more than a non-champion such as Tom Sharkey and also did more than many champions, such as for example, Battling Levinsky, who likewise faced a lot of tough men and who likewise lost a great many fights.

Last edited by OLD FOGEY; 11-25-2007 at 12:42 AM.
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Old 11-25-2007, 12:46 AM   #58
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Default Re: Most overrated old-timer?

...ah..those gentlemen who considered Ezzard Charles and Jimmy Bivins as overrated really should find a forum about....oh, say....bowling and leave boxing to those of us who know what we're talking about. okay...there are legitimate differences of opinion on many boxing matters...but...CHARLES!!! BIVINS!!!!! OVERRATED!!!!! Not even worthy of discussion.
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Old 11-25-2007, 12:50 AM   #59
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Default Re: Most overrated old-timer?

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Originally Posted by albinored
...ah..those gentlemen who considered Ezzard Charles and Jimmy Bivins as overrated really should find a forum about....oh, say....bowling and leave boxing to those of us who know what we're talking about. okay...there are legitimate differences of opinion on many boxing matters...but...CHARLES!!! BIVINS!!!!! OVERRATED!!!!! Not even worthy of discussion.
I think we're all pretty good on knowledge of Charles, so make a case for Bivins then.
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Old 11-25-2007, 04:55 AM   #60
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Default Re: Most overrated old-timer?

corbett is somewhat overrated. his record is comparatively weak, outpointing kilrain over six rounds (without hurting him at all), running from sullivan until he about fell over from exhaustion, drawing with a sick and injured peter jackson, then barely beating a very green, very crude sharkey before he loses the title and never getting another significant win.
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