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Old 11-25-2007, 05:05 AM   #61
Jack Dempsey
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Default Re: Most overrated old-timer?

I'd go with Jack Johnson
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Old 11-25-2007, 05:15 AM   #62
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Default Re: Most overrated old-timer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor
Yes they are.

But if they all say the same thing you have to take notice.
Eye witness accounts vary based on personal preference on style or fighters.

Eye witness accounts without tangible evidence like film to back it up is always dubious.

Lets take for example Leonard vs Hagler without Film we have to rely on the eye witness accounts of the people who saw that fight.


Many because they like Hagler more till this day still feel That Hagler really won that fight and vice versa many believe that Leonard rightly won that fight.

Without film the only thing we can rely on is biased personal accounts.

Last edited by godking; 11-25-2007 at 05:39 AM.
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Old 11-25-2007, 05:27 AM   #63
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Default Re: Most overrated old-timer?

Damn, Old Fogey, well produced arguement.
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Old 11-25-2007, 06:42 AM   #64
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Default Re: Most overrated old-timer?

Demsey: end of thread. It says something when Tex Rickard says he wasn't a patch on Jeffries or Fitz. He doesn't get enough criticism either for the way Kearns 'D'amato-esqued' his manoevers while champ.
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Old 11-25-2007, 07:27 AM   #65
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Default Re: Most overrated old-timer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor

No motor journalist ever did however delusional he was.

What dose that tell you?
That Nat Fleischer is a frustrated old retard with no credibility as a boxing historian when it comes to comparing fighters from eras different than his youth idols.


Quote:
To play devils advocate, perhaps I should figure that Fitzsimmons was better than Marciano.
What is the point in arguing something you don't even believe? You're really reaching for straws here. You can argue that Fitzsimmons was better than Marciano all you want, but don't be suprised when you lose all your credibility in doing so.

Quote:
Yes quite frankly. The jab is not the wonder weapon of modern boxing method, it is its achilies heel.

Jack Johnson was able to produce the formula for beating Joe Louis based on his jab. That should tell you something.
That is another one of those dramatic myths way over exagarrated. On each fight, there are thousands of people say "this fighter is prone to the left hook" , "pressure him and you'll beat him", "he drops his hands", etc etc.
When a big name says that, people will say "wow, i can't believe he figured that out, he must have been able to do that himself as well. WRONG. Seeing something and making it work are two completely different things. And you won't hear about the 1000 times that he made a wrong pick.

Same shit with Atlas being so famous for having correctly expected that Tyson would be disqualified. Big deal. You won't hear about all the ridiculously wrong calls he made, Grant knocking Lewis out etc.


Quote:
Yes quite frankly.

If fighter A wins a fight using mainly the jab it says more about fighter B than fighter A.
In the end, the jab is a great tool to win. Even a crude slugger like Foreman said "Boxing is an easy game if you have a great jab.". I think it's admirable that you're defending you old time idols here, but the fact that Johnson didn't jab or was being jabbed at is a weakness, not a strength.


Quote:
Techniques get lost. Absolutely.
Why don't you go make a ton of money and train fighters to use that magical trick because everyone these days jabs.


Quote:
Has anybody ever made better use of glove blocking than Jack Johnson?

Even theoreticaly.
Johnson holds his hands low very often and doesn't use his gloves to block punches often. He intercepts and wrestles, you won't see him blocking the left hook with his right glove. And i'm not saying that because the left hook was only invented for 10 years at that point.


Quote:
Johnson at the age of 50 was beating up top heavyweights of the 30s. At this stage it was a hobby.
Really? Then why didn't he start making money from this hobby of his? Why couldn't he beat them when it mattered?

I have seen footage of a fat 51 year old Johnson and he looked ridiculous, despite the better film speed. He had his arms stretched out all the time and flopped them. A straight puncher would get through that and knock him out.
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Old 11-25-2007, 07:31 AM   #66
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Default Re: Most overrated old-timer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor


Tunneys heavyweight record is much better if you actualy look at it. He had about 14 heavyweight fights and won them all.
14 wins of which 12 were nobodies. Big deal. Tom Heeney was that 5'8 fat heavyweight, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor
My conclusion is that there hapened to be a 168'er who just hapened to be hell on weels.
Do you find it a coincidence that despite 100 years of great fighters, never since has a 168'er been THE man? A guy like RJJ has sick speed and ability, he used all the methods to climb up in weight (steroids) yet still no one gave him a chance vs Lewis, except for the retarded Lewis haters like Ron Borges. Guys like Hagler and Monzon were great but even against decent heavyweights, they would be 50/50.
It was the heavyweight division that was shit, not Fitzsimmons that was a miracle man (Not saying that he was a bad fighter, by the way).

Quote:
I have heard acounts suggesting that Jeffries took some punishment but easily and deliberately controled the fight.
Most accounts don't say so though. And no fighter takes punishment deliberately.
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Old 11-25-2007, 08:19 AM   #67
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Default Re: Most overrated old-timer?

Take every controversial fight from the last say 20 years And hudge them not of film that you yourself have seen but on eyewitness accounts only and you will see the folly on relying on eye witness accounts from a 100 years ago.

Based on eye witness accounts alone Mike Tyson is either

1 A GOD who came down from mount Olympus to easily destroy mere mortal men and who ruled the HWS in his short prime as an Achilles reborn.

2 A mere Bully who seemingly went 37 fights without being hit and when he fought the first man who was not afraid of him immediatelly curled up into the fetal position.

you will see one of these opinions voiced at least once a week on a boxing messageboard by a Tyson lover or a Tyson hater

luckily we have film on Tyson so that we can form our own opinions.

TYson would be a nightmare to judge based only on eye witness accounts
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Old 11-25-2007, 08:37 AM   #68
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Default Re: Most overrated old-timer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor
Jem Mace was prety handy with his combinations to be honest. He really founded modern boxing technique.
By the time it started to look more or less modern (I'd guess 1920-1930's), almost nobody who saw Mace's fights was alive anymore, to make the above claim. I highly doubt Mace created something that wasn't used before his days.
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Old 11-25-2007, 01:47 PM   #69
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Default Re: Most overrated old-timer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by albinored
...ah..those gentlemen who considered Ezzard Charles and Jimmy Bivins as overrated really should find a forum about....oh, say....bowling and leave boxing to those of us who know what we're talking about. okay...there are legitimate differences of opinion on many boxing matters...but...CHARLES!!! BIVINS!!!!! OVERRATED!!!!! Not even worthy of discussion.
Tell me all about Charles and his brilliant career. He never even won the light-heavyweight title, and he briefly held the heavyweight title, for around 2 years. He beat guys like Bivins, Moore, Wallcott, Marshall. Listen, I'm not saying he was overrated, he was a damn fine fighter. I think its you who needs to find a bowling forum.
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Old 11-25-2007, 02:01 PM   #70
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Default Re: Most overrated old-timer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain
I rate Jeffries.

I think that Dempsey is the most overated HW, though he was a wonderful puncher.
I tend to think that Dempsey is UNDERRATED, if anything. Just think of how he would have benefitted by being privy to today's training methods, in addition to the toil of the traditional methods he was familiar with, and with a busier schedule when champion, he would have been even sharper. Dempsey had that resourcr of being able to end a fight on a dime with those trigger reflexes and that explosive power of his, but most of all, he may have, had he been around today, of being a cruiserweight champion par excellance, as an alternative to being in a division with all these "superheavies" over 230 lbs. I find his ko of Jack Sharkey, and his sudden, turning of the tables against Gene Tunney in the "Long Count", that sequence of deadly punches, like a rattlesnake, both fights when he was over the hill and on his last legs, to be very impressive to me.
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Old 11-25-2007, 02:12 PM   #71
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Default Re: Most overrated old-timer?

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisPontius
That Nat Fleischer is a frustrated old retard with no credibility as a boxing historian when it comes to comparing fighters from eras different than his youth idols.

What is the point in arguing something you don't even believe? You're really reaching for straws here. You can argue that Fitzsimmons was better than Marciano all you want, but don't be suprised when you lose all your credibility in doing so.
While I dont literaly believe that Bob Fitzsimmons was better than Rocky Marciano I do think that he would be a serious threat to any heavyweight under 200lbs that has ever lived.

To that extent Fleischers assesment of him is correct.

Quote:
That is another one of those dramatic myths way over exagarrated. On each fight, there are thousands of people say "this fighter is prone to the left hook" , "pressure him and you'll beat him", "he drops his hands", etc etc.
When a big name says that, people will say "wow, i can't believe he figured that out, he must have been able to do that himself as well. WRONG. Seeing something and making it work are two completely different things. And you won't hear about the 1000 times that he made a wrong pick.
Perhaps then you might alow Max Schmeling some credit for predicting that he would beat Louis.

The bottom line is that he beat perhaps the greatest jabber in the history of the heavyweight division by countering off the jab.

Quote:
In the end, the jab is a great tool to win. Even a crude slugger like Foreman said "Boxing is an easy game if you have a great jab.". I think it's admirable that you're defending you old time idols here, but the fact that Johnson didn't jab or was being jabbed at is a weakness, not a strength.
Two observations-

1. Johnson used the jab extensivly himself. See the Flyn fight for example.

2. Techniques for countering off the jab were verry heavily emphisised in this period both in training literature and among fighters. Make of that what you will.

Quote:
Why don't you go make a ton of money and train fighters to use that magical trick because everyone these days jabs.
I dont think any of todays fighters would like my proposed training methods.

Quote:
Johnson holds his hands low very often and doesn't use his gloves to block punches often. He intercepts and wrestles, you won't see him blocking the left hook with his right glove. And i'm not saying that because the left hook was only invented for 10 years at that point.
I can asure you that the left hookwas around a lot more than ten years before Johnsons time. Corbett inventing it is BS.

As for the low guard it is a characteristic of the era but it dose have benefits.

Quote:
Really? Then why didn't he start making money from this hobby of his? Why couldn't he beat them when it mattered?
Often he did. He was beating guys like Brad Simmons in his 50s. A guy who beat Tiger Jack Fox.

This is not what you would expect from a primitive technician in his 50s.
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Old 11-25-2007, 02:17 PM   #72
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Default Re: Most overrated old-timer?

robbi...one cannot win a title when the champions managers consistently turn down huge guarantees from the challengers management.
Have a nice holiday season eating your haggis or whatever they call that stuff.
ALas, I wouldn't feel qualified to be on a bowling forum as I have not observed that activity for over 60 years.

Re:Those who said Jimmy Bivins. I said the statement about him being overrated doesn't even merit discussion, so I won't make one. However, read old Fogey here and another thread for your education.
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Old 11-25-2007, 02:55 PM   #73
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Default Re: Most overrated old-timer?

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisPontius
14 wins of which 12 were nobodies. Big deal. Tom Heeney was that 5'8 fat heavyweight, right?
Heeney was one of the better names of the period. He won an elimination tournament to get his title shot after all.

Charlie Weinert is also a decent win.

Tommy Gibbons although old was still the No2 heavyweight contender when Tunney beat him.

So I think there is a little more to it than you make out.

Quote:
Do you find it a coincidence that despite 100 years of great fighters, never since has a 168'er been THE man? A guy like RJJ has sick speed and ability, he used all the methods to climb up in weight (steroids) yet still no one gave him a chance vs Lewis, except for the retarded Lewis haters like Ron Borges. Guys like Hagler and Monzon were great but even against decent heavyweights, they would be 50/50.
It was the heavyweight division that was shit, not Fitzsimmons that was a miracle man (Not saying that he was a bad fighter, by the way).
So was Fitzsimmons the champion because the era was weak enough or because he was an exceptional 168 pounder?

I would say the latter to be honest. One thing that Fitzsimmons record dose uphold is that he was an exceptional heavyweight finisher.

I mean dose any other heavyweight champion have a comparable record for finishing top contenders with a single punch or combination?

Quote:
Most accounts don't say so though. And no fighter takes punishment deliberately.
Jeffries strategy was to fight a safety first fight behind his crouch and gradualy wear Fitzsimmons down. It meant taking punishment but it worked.
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Old 11-25-2007, 03:37 PM   #74
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Default Re: Most overrated old-timer?

I can asure you all that the chances of any fighter pre 1930 being over rated by the average person o0n this forum are virtualy zero.
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Old 11-25-2007, 04:10 PM   #75
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Default Re: Most overrated old-timer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by albinored
robbi...one cannot win a title when the champions managers consistently turn down huge guarantees from the challengers management.
Have a nice holiday season eating your haggis or whatever they call that stuff.
ALas, I wouldn't feel qualified to be on a bowling forum as I have not observed that activity for over 60 years.

Re:Those who said Jimmy Bivins. I said the statement about him being overrated doesn't even merit discussion, so I won't make one. However, read old Fogey here and another thread for your education.
Easy out.
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