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Old 03-08-2012, 06:36 AM   #61
mcvey
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Default Re: "Jim J. Jeffries vs. Max Baer" (Heavyweight Title Dream Fight.) Who is the man?

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Originally Posted by Mendoza View Post
Cauilflower ear? Wrong fight dolt.

Jeffries had 125 exhibition matches, and likely quite a few matches happened that were not reported in the press. Jeffries, unlike Johnson was not afraid to mix it, fought better punchers ( No a teenage Mcvey, a 156 pound Langford and a novice 160-165 pound Jeannette were not in Fitz's or Sharkey's class as a punchers ).

There is no doubt who fought better opposition as champion. In addition Jeffries never stopped early as Johnson was, never was floored by super middle weights, nor did he quit in the ring as Johnson did...TWICE. Jeffries never fouled out for going low either as Johnson did. In fact there is reference for Johnson tossing them low in another fight
Damage control time for you again!

Enraged by Johnson's insulting patter and left-hook to the belly, Ferguson took advantage of a bearhug by Johnson to drive his knee twice into his opponent's groin. Ferguson had taken the first two rounds, round three was even, but Johnson began driving home a wicked left hook to the stomach to take the fifth and sixth, and one or two may have strayed. "

This is pretty pathetic , even by your miserable standards.
N. B. Jeffries was kod in the gym by James J Corbett, probably the lightest hitting of the Heavyweight Champions

Here is that "super middle ",at age 46.

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

He went 20 rds to a draw with Jim Jeffries , broke his nose, and smashed his mouth in , hit him with what, Jeffries described as the "hardest blow I ever received," despite Jeffries outweighing him by 63lbs.
N.B. When Choynski kod Johnson , both were super middles.

You need to raise your game by about 50000%


Having you around for "Comic Relief" is fine ,but try and add another dimension to your posts, such as grammatically, punctuated ,readable ,sentences.

Last edited by mcvey; 02-18-2014 at 12:35 PM.
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Old 03-08-2012, 06:45 AM   #62
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Default Re: "Jim J. Jeffries vs. Max Baer" (Heavyweight Title Dream Fight.) Who is the man?

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Originally Posted by Mendoza View Post
Ed,

Maxie is a new poster and it appears he is here for comedy. He might even be an alternate pen name for another poster.
Nope, not nobodies alt and you still havn't given any reason as to WHY Jeffries would beat Baer. I believe Jeffries loses because he has never proved himself against larger men of a certain calibre and Baer being harder punching and more durable, if that's comedy then must a ****ing comedian considering your posts. You appear here for trolling purposes. Shoo
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Old 03-08-2012, 02:29 PM   #63
edward morbius
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Default Re: "Jim J. Jeffries vs. Max Baer" (Heavyweight Title Dream Fight.) Who is the man?

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Originally Posted by MadcapMaxie View Post
Please show me how the arguement is circular, anywho Braddock gets underrated a whole lot he had the unfortunate luck of coming across prime Louis and still managed to go 8 rounds and deck him. He was fairly skilled, good right hand, great heart, great stamina and a great chin. I do believe that the Braddock who beat Baer would have more of a showing against Jeffries than 37 y/o corbett who hadnt fought in 3 years and super middle Fitz who was 36 and 39.

As for that fat, aging Galento, yeah i do favour him he just came from decking Joe Louis and beating Nova despite being 3 to 1 underdog. Tony had a bigger punch and was supremely more durable than Sharkey, Corbett and Fitz also a hell of alot bigger.

As for your third point based on what footage ive seen (Ruhlin, Sharkey, Johnson) i wouldn't say Jeffries fought from a crouch. He stood straight up, hands by his waist with his legs bent. As for Uzcudun i wouldn't call Jeffries as durable as him, Uzcudun was seriously Chuvalo-esque and was only taken out once by none other than the Brown Bomber.
1--Uzcudun--I don't have any idea who was the tougher between Uzcudun and Jeffries. Both were known to be able to take it. The question is irrelevant, however, as Baer did not ko, or come close to koing, Uzcudun. Baer did not ko Braddock either. Not being able to ko Uzcudun or Braddock is hardly proof that he had the punch to ko Jeffries.

2--Galento--I am happy that Galento was big and tough and a better puncher, etc. He was however stopped in 4 by the 168 pound Al Gainer, while it took Baer 8. By the way, Gainer, who was the same size as Fitz and Choynski, not only stopped Galento, but defeated the supposedly too big for Jeff, Braddock.

3--Yes, I think using Braddock's victory over Baer as a claim that Braddock was tougher than Jeff's competition strikes me as a circular argument, as Braddock otherwise looks pretty ordinary. Compare him, for example, to Charley Retzlaff. Braddock's biggest win over a heavy on his way to the title shot was a victory over Art Lasky. Retzlaff stopped Lasky. He also beat Braddock himself, and had a much more impressive won-lost record and ko record.

4--Nova--seems to be another fighter who was grossly overrated because he could outfight Baer. He was, after all, stopped twice by Lee Savold.
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Old 03-08-2012, 02:44 PM   #64
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Default Re: "Jim J. Jeffries vs. Max Baer" (Heavyweight Title Dream Fight.) Who is the man?

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Originally Posted by edward morbius View Post
1--Uzcudun--I don't have any idea who was the tougher between Uzcudun and Jeffries. Both were known to be able to take it. The question is irrelevant, however, as Baer did not ko, or come close to koing, Uzcudun. Baer did not ko Braddock either. Not being able to ko Uzcudun or Braddock is hardly proof that he had the punch to ko Jeffries.

2--Galento--I am happy that Galento was big and tough and a better puncher, etc. He was however stopped in 4 by the 168 pound Al Gainer, while it took Baer 8. By the way, Gainer, who was the same size as Fitz and Choynski, not only stopped Galento, but defeated the supposedly too big for Jeff, Braddock.

3--Yes, I think using Braddock's victory over Baer as a claim that Braddock was tougher than Jeff's competition strikes me as a circular argument, as Braddock otherwise looks pretty ordinary. Compare him, for example, to Charley Retzlaff. Braddock's biggest win over a heavy on his way to the title shot was a victory over Art Lasky. Retzlaff stopped Lasky. He also beat Braddock himself, and had a much more impressive won-lost record and ko record.

4--Nova--seems to be another fighter who was grossly overrated because he could outfight Baer. He was, after all, stopped twice by Lee Savold.
Gainer stopped Galento because of a badly cut eye suffered by Galento.
But browsing through his record made me think that Herb Goldman did not overrate him when he rated him d 25th greatest lightheavy of all time .
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Old 03-08-2012, 02:45 PM   #65
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Default Re: "Jim J. Jeffries vs. Max Baer" (Heavyweight Title Dream Fight.) Who is the man?

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Originally Posted by MadcapMaxie View Post
Baer fought more punchers than Jeffries who were siginificantly bigger than the ones Jeffries faced, majority being in their prime as opposed to 37 years old and he fought them more consistently. The only man above 200 pounds that Jeffries fought KO'd him with ease and he wasn't a big puncher either. Johnson didnt "wear" Jeffries down he toyed with him and the first real shots Johnson landed took him out. The only 'punchers' Jeffries faced was Fitz who was old as dirt adn 30+ lbs less, Choynski who was 60lbs less and Sharkey who was 30lbs less. I rate Schmeling, Carnera, Galento, Louis adn Nova as bigger punchers than all of them. The first 3 didn't have Baer in any trouble at all, Baer quit against Louis and in the first Nova bout he hit Baer with everything he had for 11 rounds and couldn't put him down. I've never heard anyone rate Jeffries as having the superior chin.
1--I don't know why an ATG taking 15 rounds in blistering heat to ko a Jeffries who had been off for 6 years is "with ease." Jeff lasted longer in this fight than Baer did twice against the ordinary Nova, despite being several years older than Baer was. As for "toying", I have seen all the film of this fight which exists (according to the National Film Registry which I questioned on this matter) and I don't really see any toying going on.

2--Baer never went the distance with Louis or Nova, so why bring them up?

3--It is certainly arbitrary to say Carnera was a bigger puncher than Fitz or Sharkey or even Choynski, regardless of size.

4--After his first fight with Jeff, Fitz blasted out Ed Dunkhorst, who was certainly big, as well as top contenders Sharkey and Ruhlin.

Last edited by edward morbius; 03-08-2012 at 08:13 PM.
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Old 03-08-2012, 03:06 PM   #66
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Default Re: "Jim J. Jeffries vs. Max Baer" (Heavyweight Title Dream Fight.) Who is the man?

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Originally Posted by frankenfrank View Post
Gainer stopped Galento because of a badly cut eye suffered by Galento.
But browsing through his record made me think that Herb Goldman did not overrate him when he rated him d 25th greatest lightheavy of all time .

"badly cut eye"

Fair enough, but Baer didn't put Galento down either. Galento claimed a broken hand, apparently, but definitely had a badly cut lip.
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Old 03-08-2012, 03:17 PM   #67
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Default Re: "Jim J. Jeffries vs. Max Baer" (Heavyweight Title Dream Fight.) Who is the man?

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Originally Posted by Legend X View Post
Jeffries has the reputation for being the greater fighter but Baer is probably a much bigger stronger (and younger?) man that the men Jeffries was accustomed to take on. With all due respect to the likes of Fitzsimmons, Choynski, Corbett, Jackson, Sharkey ... these were dusty old men or blown-up middleweights. ..... and Baer at 23 years old was a 210 pound hunk of prime beef - a thoroughbred stud !



(no homo)
My thoughts expressed by some1 else .
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Old 03-08-2012, 03:27 PM   #68
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Default Re: "Jim J. Jeffries vs. Max Baer" (Heavyweight Title Dream Fight.) Who is the man?

As mentioned earlier by others , Baer was way more proven .


edit : Jeffries was more massive , Baer was taller , neither had a big advantage over d other .

Last edited by frankenfrank; 03-09-2012 at 12:55 PM.
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Old 03-08-2012, 03:40 PM   #69
edward morbius
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Default Re: "Jim J. Jeffries vs. Max Baer" (Heavyweight Title Dream Fight.) Who is the man?

"Baer is probably a much bigger stronger (and younger?) man than the men Jeffries was accustumed to take on."

And also probably not as fast or as skillful (Sharkey excluded).

You assume that because he was big and strong, he gives Jeff more problems than the lighter, faster, more skillful men did. It might work the other way. Jeff could prove stronger and tougher than Baer, and without a speed or skill advantage, Baer would then be a "made for" opponent for Jeffries.

**This matchup is sort of like the old Mexican matchups of a bull with a bison. The bison always won because it was just better than the bull at the bull's own game. I think Jeff might prove better than Baer at Baer's own game. Someone like the dancing Corbett could be expected to give Jeff a better fight.
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Old 03-08-2012, 03:42 PM   #70
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Default Re: "Jim J. Jeffries vs. Max Baer" (Heavyweight Title Dream Fight.) Who is the man?

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Originally Posted by frankenfrank View Post
As mentioned earlier by others , Baer was way more proven .
A simple thing that wasn't mentioned here is that Baer was also bigger than Jeffries .
"Baer was bigger than Jeffries"

was he?

Baer was taller, but Jeffries generally weighed more at the same age.
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Old 03-08-2012, 04:19 PM   #71
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Default Re: "Jim J. Jeffries vs. Max Baer" (Heavyweight Title Dream Fight.) Who is the man?

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Originally Posted by edward morbius View Post
"Baer was bigger than Jeffries"

was he?

Baer was taller, but Jeffries generally weighed more at the same age.
Baer's weight ranged from a career low 190 2 a career high of 224 , whereas Jeffries' weight ranged from 201 2 227 , so Jeffries may have been stronger but he was 1 of d most proven cases of a relatively strong man who punches weak 4 his strength , or otherwise Tom Sharkey and other welterweights and lightmiddleweights (by 2day's standards) wouldn't have been so competitive against him .
Jeffries most probably hit weaker than Ken Norton , was about as strong , and there is no evidence that he was even as durable as Ken Norton , let alone more durable than him .
Ken Norton fought Foreman , Shavers and that's were 2/3 of his stoppage losses that matter came from . The other was Jose Luis Garcia whom despite his lack of mass 4 a heavyweight of his generation , was a huge monster compared 2 Choynski , Sharkey and Fitzsimmons .
Put them aside and 1 must have 2 assume that Ron Stander , Jerry Quarry , Jose Luis Garcia , Duane Bobick and even Ali and Holmes all hit harder and were more durable than Jeffries' opponents .
And Norton outpointed/stopped/at least went d distance with these guys and others so if anything there is more evidence that Norton was more durable than Jeffries and even hit harder . Jeffries might only have been stronger in d clinches and i doubt even this .
Jeffries was strong , had good stamina and was n impressing athlete but punching power was not 1 of his strengths , at least not as 1 would have expected from a man of his size competing against much older and smaller opponents while using extremely thin gloves . Jeffries was a featherfisted strong man . Regarding his stamina he never had 2 match it over d distance in clinches and shoves with some1 like Ali , Norton , Foreman , Holmes , Holyfield , Bowe or even with some1 like Shavers , Stander , Quarry or James Toney .
Think about it and SMW Toney would have been 1 of Jeffries' strongest , hardest punching and d single most durable 4 sure (he sparred Lamon Brewster back then) opponents .
Going on about his slickness , counterpunching , infighting and technique will b outside of this thread's interest right now , just note that until Jack Johnson's era and including , most of d top contenders would not have allowed 2 compete at heavyweight because even if they filled their bellies with water/beer they could not weigh high enough , and remember that d opposite is some 100000:1 more common , and I mean dehydration and cutting weight of course .
Jeffries , Johnson and their predecessors barely fought heavyweights and would not have been considered heavyweights under 2day's standrads .
Jeffries might have been a vastly undersized heavy if he chose being such rather than a strong cruiserweight .
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Old 03-08-2012, 06:40 PM   #72
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Default Re: "Jim J. Jeffries vs. Max Baer" (Heavyweight Title Dream Fight.) Who is the man?

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Originally Posted by frankenfrank View Post
Baer's weight ranged from a career low 190 2 a career high of 224 , whereas Jeffries' weight ranged from 201 2 227 , so Jeffries may have been stronger but he was 1 of d most proven cases of a relatively strong man who punches weak 4 his strength , or otherwise Tom Sharkey and other welterweights and lightmiddleweights (by 2day's standards) wouldn't have been so competitive against him .
Jeffries most probably hit weaker than Ken Norton , was about as strong , and there is no evidence that he was even as durable as Ken Norton , let alone more durable than him .
Ken Norton fought Foreman , Shavers and that's were 2/3 of his stoppage losses that matter came from . The other was Jose Luis Garcia whom despite his lack of mass 4 a heavyweight of his generation , was a huge monster compared 2 Choynski , Sharkey and Fitzsimmons .
Put them aside and 1 must have 2 assume that Ron Stander , Jerry Quarry , Jose Luis Garcia , Duane Bobick and even Ali and Holmes all hit harder and were more durable than Jeffries' opponents .
And Norton outpointed/stopped/at least went d distance with these guys and others so if anything there is more evidence that Norton was more durable than Jeffries and even hit harder . Jeffries might only have been stronger in d clinches and i doubt even this .
Jeffries was strong , had good stamina and was n impressing athlete but punching power was not 1 of his strengths , at least not as 1 would have expected from a man of his size competing against much older and smaller opponents while using extremely thin gloves . Jeffries was a featherfisted strong man . Regarding his stamina he never had 2 match it over d distance in clinches and shoves with some1 like Ali , Norton , Foreman , Holmes , Holyfield , Bowe or even with some1 like Shavers , Stander , Quarry or James Toney .
Think about it and SMW Toney would have been 1 of Jeffries' strongest , hardest punching and d single most durable 4 sure (he sparred Lamon Brewster back then) opponents .
Going on about his slickness , counterpunching , infighting and technique will b outside of this thread's interest right now , just note that until Jack Johnson's era and including , most of d top contenders would not have allowed 2 compete at heavyweight because even if they filled their bellies with water/beer they could not weigh high enough , and remember that d opposite is some 100000:1 more common , and I mean dehydration and cutting weight of course .
Jeffries , Johnson and their predecessors barely fought heavyweights and would not have been considered heavyweights under 2day's standrads .
Jeffries might have been a vastly undersized heavy if he chose being such rather than a strong cruiserweight .
1--Baer and Jeffries--I take you agree with me that Jeff was probably the "bigger" man.

2--Norton, Foreman, Shavers, Stander, Quarry, Garcia, Toney, etc--what have any of these men to do with Baer, who fought in the thirties, not the seventies.

3--"Jeffries, Johnson and their predecessors barely fought heavyweights and would not have been considered heavyweights under 2day's standards"--So. They would have been considered heavyweights under the standards of Baer's day. And, most importantly, they were considered heavyweights under the standards of their own time, the only standards which matter, actually, to anyone.

4--Mickey Walker, a puffed up middleweight (or is that welterweight), of Baer's time defeated Risko and Uzcudun, who in turn defeated Baer.
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Old 03-08-2012, 07:37 PM   #73
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Default Re: "Jim J. Jeffries vs. Max Baer" (Heavyweight Title Dream Fight.) Who is the man?

Jeff's weight varied between 1899 to 1904 over a range of a good 15 pounds... When Jimmy Jeff was young he was listed somewhere between 6' 1" to 6' 2" tall and around 208pounds solid... By the time he was nearing or at 30 he was upward of 220 pounds... Jimmy Jeff was a big man for his era and his size is right there with Max Baer...

For the record, according to my fight film, Baer was 203 pounds for Schmeling who was listed at 189 in circa 1932...

Baer looks a hair taller than Jeff, but Jeff had tree trunk thighs / legs...

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Old 03-08-2012, 09:42 PM   #74
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Default Re: "Jim J. Jeffries vs. Max Baer" (Heavyweight Title Dream Fight.) Who is the man?

Don't have the time or compulsion to read what is surely 5 pages of inanities... so I will state my choice in Baer KO'ing Jeffries in 11 rounds, battering his face into mincemeat with aggressive attack while Jeff waits to win the battle of attrition. Jeff is bewildered even by Baer's skill level and gets caught with winging rights repeatedly. Post fight, he is recommended to retire by his physicians.
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Old 03-08-2012, 11:06 PM   #75
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Default Re: "Jim J. Jeffries vs. Max Baer" (Heavyweight Title Dream Fight.) Who is the man?

Be as it may be, there isn't a serious boxing fan / historian alive who wouldn't give their left ball to see Jeffries and Baer go to war in a time machine with both men being peaked around 1902 and 1933 respectively.... That's no shit....

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