Boxing  

Forum Home Boxing Forum European British Classic Aussie MMA Training
Go Back   Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum


Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 05-04-2011, 06:58 AM   #1
jaffay
New Orleans Hornets
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Warsaw, Poland
Posts: 1,990
vCash: 215
Default Jack Johnson today with 8 oz gloves - how would he do?

Recently I was thinking about fighters defence today and in the past.

I've noticed that many defensive styles depended from the gloves that were used in particular eras.

Like in the the start of the 20th century, gloves were smaller, you couldn't hide your face behind it quite well. Imagine Mike Tyson and his peek a boo with thiner gloves...he could be seriously hurt.

In the old days it often looked that fighters rather parry punches midway through than block it by guard with gloves close to their face. Distance control was very important. Since thiner gloves had bigger cut ability, it's quite reasonable.

I think that it's little easier to defend when you have bigger gloves because of wider blocking surface. Considering this I wonder how would Jack Johnson adapt to this. I think that he could be even better and spectacular than James Toney some time ago. His counters would be just mad.

At 6'2 and 220 he would be in size of Evander Holyfield, probably even more muscular. Johnson had the stamina to fight 15 rounds so 12 rounds would be favouring him, cuz he could keep high work rate and good movement in late rounds.

What do you think guys?
jaffay is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 05-04-2011, 08:08 AM   #2
RockysSplitNose
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: East Midlands in England
Posts: 3,903
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Jack Johnson today with 8 oz gloves - how would he do?

This is just one of the angles I come from in thinking that Johnson was one of the very greatest fighters of all time at heavyweight - in terms of crossover success - the bigger gloves would allow for much greater power to be used in his punches - this would be increased tenfold with the use of good handwraps too - something which was also absent in the days of Johnson - plus plain old having the handcuffs removed aswell - and not fighting in front of crowds who might potentially lynch you if you decked a white guy to viciously aswell - I personally think Jack Johnson aswell as being a defensive genius was probably one of the most venomous punchers ever too actually - with all the advantages I've stated above I thnk Johnson would've probably KO'd all of his title challengers in a couple of rounds a peice each - plus also consider that he fought his bouts without the benefit of gumshields too - have you ever seen the way guys respond these days if they lose their gumshields??! They run a mile and start appealing to the ref to call time to put it back in!! Johnson simply fought without for round after round - but yeah , defensively aswell his already amazing ability would be showcased tenfold had he had the luxuries of the pillow case gloves they use these days - another extremely important thing to consider is that Johnson and fighters of his era generally - fought in the days before the advent of rubber soled shoes to - they used leather on the bottom of their shoes in them days!! My grandad who grew up in that era said to me they were horrendous - it was difficult keeping any grip just walking down the street in them let alone trying to dance and manouver around a canvas boxing ring - the fact that Johnson displayed pretty nifty footwork in these again suggests to me that with the benefit of todays footwear he be ABSOLUTELY brilliant around the ring in proper boxing shoes that we know today - so many little things to consider when looking at earlier eras - bottom line Johnson was absolutely a genius fighter as he was in his own time - we can only make guestimates as to how good he could've been if all the above cards were stacked in his favour - but my guess is that he would be street's ahead of most without the handicaps of the tiny gloves no wraps no gumshields poor footwear deaths threats at ringside handcuffs on very tightly etc
RockysSplitNose is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2011, 08:57 AM   #3
Cael
Claudia Cardinale
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Ballz Deep
Posts: 1,694
vCash: 811
Default Re: Jack Johnson today with 8 oz gloves - how would he do?

ogh yeah....another one of those "what would happen with X fighter in todays division after stuffing him up with modern food and boxing knowledge" threads.

If the 1910 JJ fought in todays division he would had gotten flattened by the likes of Chris Arreola and Sam Peter.

Jack Johnson was never 6ft.2 220lbs...not even in his wettest dreams.
Cael is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2011, 09:23 AM   #4
BlacksRSuperior
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
vCash:
Default Re: Jack Johnson today with 8 oz gloves - how would he do?

agreed 100 percent Cael. I seen threads like this " What if Rocky Marciano was 6'5 250 pounds and had talent and could punch as fast as Roy Jones Jr." The point is he didnt want never was.

Johnson wasn't even great for his own time. Cherry picking that is what Jack Johnson was. A cherry picker.
 Top
Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2011, 10:28 AM   #5
Seamus
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Lisboa, Portugal
Posts: 11,541
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Jack Johnson today with 8 oz gloves - how would he do?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RockysSplitNose View Post
This is just one of the angles I come from in thinking that Johnson was one of the very greatest fighters of all time at heavyweight - in terms of crossover success - the bigger gloves would allow for much greater power to be used in his punches - this would be increased tenfold with the use of good handwraps too - something which was also absent in the days of Johnson - plus plain old having the handcuffs removed aswell - and not fighting in front of crowds who might potentially lynch you if you decked a white guy to viciously aswell - I personally think Jack Johnson aswell as being a defensive genius was probably one of the most venomous punchers ever too actually - with all the advantages I've stated above I thnk Johnson would've probably KO'd all of his title challengers in a couple of rounds a peice each - plus also consider that he fought his bouts without the benefit of gumshields too - have you ever seen the way guys respond these days if they lose their gumshields??! They run a mile and start appealing to the ref to call time to put it back in!! Johnson simply fought without for round after round - but yeah , defensively aswell his already amazing ability would be showcased tenfold had he had the luxuries of the pillow case gloves they use these days - another extremely important thing to consider is that Johnson and fighters of his era generally - fought in the days before the advent of rubber soled shoes to - they used leather on the bottom of their shoes in them days!! My grandad who grew up in that era said to me they were horrendous - it was difficult keeping any grip just walking down the street in them let alone trying to dance and manouver around a canvas boxing ring - the fact that Johnson displayed pretty nifty footwork in these again suggests to me that with the benefit of todays footwear he be ABSOLUTELY brilliant around the ring in proper boxing shoes that we know today - so many little things to consider when looking at earlier eras - bottom line Johnson was absolutely a genius fighter as he was in his own time - we can only make guestimates as to how good he could've been if all the above cards were stacked in his favour - but my guess is that he would be street's ahead of most without the handicaps of the tiny gloves no wraps no gumshields poor footwear deaths threats at ringside handcuffs on very tightly etc
A fine piece of imaginative fiction but I think it would be better with the assertion that Johnson took a dive against Choynski in addition to the dive he took against Willard. And the fact that O'Brien was wearing Everlast soles in their fight... and that Marvin Hart had a magical gumshield which deflected the devastating power the Galveston Giant possessed (of course he did, he was 6 foot 8 and 250 pounds... no, I mean 5 foot 9, 155 pounds as he was when he took the dive against Choynski...)

I never tire of imaginative lengths that Johnson apologists forge in order twist empirical facts and actual events into an argument for his superman like abilities. Keep up the fine work of keeping me in stitches.
Seamus is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2011, 07:16 PM   #6
jaffay
New Orleans Hornets
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Warsaw, Poland
Posts: 1,990
vCash: 215
Default Re: Jack Johnson today with 8 oz gloves - how would he do?

No response about gloves...
jaffay is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2011, 07:59 AM   #7
RockysSplitNose
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: East Midlands in England
Posts: 3,903
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Jack Johnson today with 8 oz gloves - how would he do?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seamus View Post
A fine piece of imaginative fiction but I think it would be better with the assertion that Johnson took a dive against Choynski in addition to the dive he took against Willard. And the fact that O'Brien was wearing Everlast soles in their fight... and that Marvin Hart had a magical gumshield which deflected the devastating power the Galveston Giant possessed (of course he did, he was 6 foot 8 and 250 pounds... no, I mean 5 foot 9, 155 pounds as he was when he took the dive against Choynski...)

I never tire of imaginative lengths that Johnson apologists forge in order twist empirical facts and actual events into an argument for his superman like abilities. Keep up the fine work of keeping me in stitches.
Seamus, have you ever boxed in your life before?? Have you ever even sparred before - I'm guessing you have zero first hand experience because if you actually did you'd know for a fact that all the above points about for instance glove size - hand wraps - gumshields - and hugely important the leather bottoms on shoes back then - had a massive MASSIVE IMPACT ON HOW THEY FOUGHT BACK THEN - I wasn't specifically referencing it to Johnson either so I'm not a Johnson apologist as you put it I was simply highlighting the guy who posted this thread to begin with was making a very good and very legitimate point and adding a few others to highlight to historical lightweights such as yourself who can't see past the end of there nose
RockysSplitNose is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2011, 10:16 AM   #8
Seamus
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Lisboa, Portugal
Posts: 11,541
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Jack Johnson today with 8 oz gloves - how would he do?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RockysSplitNose View Post
Seamus, have you ever boxed in your life before?? Have you ever even sparred before - I'm guessing you have zero first hand experience because if you actually did you'd know for a fact that all the above points about for instance glove size - hand wraps - gumshields - and hugely important the leather bottoms on shoes back then - had a massive MASSIVE IMPACT ON HOW THEY FOUGHT BACK THEN - I wasn't specifically referencing it to Johnson either so I'm not a Johnson apologist as you put it I was simply highlighting the guy who posted this thread to begin with was making a very good and very legitimate point and adding a few others to highlight to historical lightweights such as yourself who can't see past the end of there nose
Fought Silver and Golden Gloves, kickboxed and TKD. And just so you know I am missing two teeth (one recently) both of which I attribute to getting hit and kicked in the head over the years. In fact, I brought up the very issue of dental health in old timey boxers about a year ago on this very forum in a thread comparing old timers to new timers.

My point being, Johnson fought under the same conditions as tens of thousands of his contemporaries and I dare imagine his actual opponents. No tears for Marvin Hart's little mits and chicklets?
Seamus is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2011, 11:09 AM   #9
Bummy Davis
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: New York
Posts: 8,830
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Jack Johnson today with 8 oz gloves - how would he do?

Great fighter are great fighters...what made him rise to the top in his era would allow him to rise to the top today....He may not make it the very top but that goes for all the champs in different era and conditions of that particular era...a King is a King in his Kingdom, once you set out of your particular decade and move to another past or forward you have to play by the rules and methods of that era past and forward
Bummy Davis is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2011, 11:13 AM   #10
HENDO
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 5,060
vCash: 500
Default Re: Jack Johnson today with 8 oz gloves - how would he do?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cael View Post
ogh yeah....another one of those "what would happen with X fighter in todays division after stuffing him up with modern food and boxing knowledge" threads.

If the 1910 JJ fought in todays division he would had gotten flattened by the likes of Chris Arreola and Sam Peter.

Jack Johnson was never 6ft.2 220lbs...not even in his wettest dreams.
Slap yourself.

HENDO is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2011, 03:09 PM   #11
choklab
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: bad to the bone and sexy
Posts: 4,943
vCash: 500
Default Re: Jack Johnson today with 8 oz gloves - how would he do?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jaffay View Post
No response about gloves...

with smaller gloves there was a lot more scope with being able to manipulate the opponents positioning and also less room for mistakes. these skills (arm pull turns, parrying, inside shovel hooks and shovel uppercuts) are harder to use with modern gloves and no longer developed but fighters who used them easily adapted them wearing bigger gloves in training.

A modern fighter canot grip the biceps of his opponent with new gloves like jack did because he never develpoed it wearing it with the old ones. Johnson did develop this with smaller ones, with bigger gloves with attached thumbs he could still do it, perhaps not as effectivly at first but yes, I belive he could do it as effectivly.


Johnson was expert at feinting someone into his range and pulling the trigger. with smaller gloves you need to be pinpoint, without taped hands you had to develop a more precise hitting impact to save your hands. The right part of the knuckles has to make contact each time so a more efficient punch is used anyway. more damage with half power. This would enhance the desired effect using bigger gloves because there is less importance in landing with the right part of the glove all the time. a corect conection with a bigger glove at half power will have more effect than uncorect impact at half power.

I believe that the amount of seasoning and tricks Johnson picked up would go a long way, it has to count for something. He was a master and would adapt, he was a clever man after all.

Even with bigger gloves, all the modern explosive power training, nutrition and athletic capabilities wont stop a modern fighter having the pace controlled by a wiser fighter, buying a feint and walking onto a timed shot he cant see coming. Johnson was an expert at what he did he would have an edge in any era.

Last edited by choklab; 05-05-2011 at 03:26 PM.
choklab is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2011, 03:13 PM   #12
Kalasinn
♧ OG Kally ♤
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: from parts unknown
Posts: 9,177
vCash: 1200
Default Re: Jack Johnson today with 8 oz gloves - how would he do?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cael View Post

Jack Johnson was never 6ft.2 220lbs...not even in his wettest dreams.
He was 6′ 1″ & a muscular 210lbs, that is big enough.

Today Johnson would be at least 215lbs.
Kalasinn is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2011, 11:17 AM   #13
naldo marshal
heavyweight champ
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Somewhere
Posts: 2,911
vCash: 500
Default Re: Jack Johnson today with 8 oz gloves - how would he do?

why didn't u insert his latest pics!
naldo marshal is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2011, 01:19 PM   #14
mcvey
P4P King
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: The Garden Of England
Posts: 20,012
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Jack Johnson today with 8 oz gloves - how would he do?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalasinn View Post
He was 6′ 1″ & a muscular 210lbs, that is big enough.

Today Johnson would be at least 215lbs.

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]



Johnson in 1905 & 1915, a decade later.A considerable difference is discernable I think.

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
mcvey is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2011, 07:58 AM   #15
RockysSplitNose
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: East Midlands in England
Posts: 3,903
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Jack Johnson today with 8 oz gloves - how would he do?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seamus View Post
Fought Silver and Golden Gloves, kickboxed and TKD. And just so you know I am missing two teeth (one recently) both of which I attribute to getting hit and kicked in the head over the years. In fact, I brought up the very issue of dental health in old timey boxers about a year ago on this very forum in a thread comparing old timers to new timers.

My point being, Johnson fought under the same conditions as tens of thousands of his contemporaries and I dare imagine his actual opponents. No tears for Marvin Hart's little mits and chicklets?
Lost the flow of your point now completely?? Sounds like you are just angry that I'm showing empathy to Johnson? So you acknowledge that all the other fighters of his era fought with the same handicaps and you acknowledge how that impacted on the way they could fight? But you have an issue with me using these very issues to illustrate that without those handicaps he would be better still under present conditions?
RockysSplitNose is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Reply

Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump





All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:18 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Boxing News 24 Forum 2013