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Old 05-07-2011, 08:01 AM   #16
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Default Re: Jack Johnson today with 8 oz gloves - how would he do?

He would be shielding his eyes from the ring lights after sampling a blinding flurry of leather from the great SNV!!!!
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Old 05-07-2011, 01:48 PM   #17
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Default Re: Jack Johnson today with 8 oz gloves - how would he do?

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Originally Posted by Bummy Davis View Post
Great fighter are great fighters...what made him rise to the top in his era would allow him to rise to the top today....He may not make it the very top but that goes for all the champs in different era and conditions of that particular era...a King is a King in his Kingdom, once you set out of your particular decade and move to another past or forward you have to play by the rules and methods of that era past and forward
I wish people could just leave it at this.
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Old 05-08-2011, 04:51 PM   #18
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Default Re: Jack Johnson today with 8 oz gloves - how would he do?

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A fine piece of imaginative fiction but I think it would be better with the assertion that Johnson took a dive against Choynski in addition to the dive he took against Willard. And the fact that O'Brien was wearing Everlast soles in their fight... and that Marvin Hart had a magical gumshield which deflected the devastating power the Galveston Giant possessed (of course he did, he was 6 foot 8 and 250 pounds... no, I mean 5 foot 9, 155 pounds as he was when he took the dive against Choynski...)

I never tire of imaginative lengths that Johnson apologists forge in order twist empirical facts and actual events into an argument for his superman like abilities. Keep up the fine work of keeping me in stitches.
Like you said, Johnson's ring abilities are the most popular version of fools gold on the board. On film Johnson is semi lethargic with his feet, has a low guard, doesn't throw a lot of punches, and clinches a lot ( which would get him docked points in a modern era ). Some old timers would get a punchers chance, but Johnson was only a solid hitter. Jack Johnson had defensive tendencies. He was in fact KO'd by man under 170 pounds, and floored by another man under the light heavyweight limit. He was also out boxed by men of the same size.

To complicate things further, Johnson did in fact quit, and dog it in fight when things did not go his way early. See the Klondike and Hart fights. Larry Merchant would have ripped him a new one.

Johnson today would be no better than 3rd in the division today. He would be completely out classed by both Klitschko's. He might win or lose to Povetkin. He might win or lose to the punchers like Haye. He might win, or lose a points decision to a very good technical boxer like Adamek.

8 OZ gloves would hurt him today more than help him. The more padding in the glove, the better for him.

Last edited by Mendoza; 05-09-2011 at 05:53 AM.
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Old 05-09-2011, 04:27 AM   #19
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Default Re: Jack Johnson today with 8 oz gloves - how would he do?

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Originally Posted by Mendoza View Post
Like you said, Johnson's ring abilities are the most popular version of fools gold on the board. On film Johnson is semi lethargic with his feet, has a low guard, doesn't throw a lot of punches, and clinches a lot ( which would get him docked points in a modern era ). Some old timers would get a punchers chance, but Johnson was only a solid hitter. Jack Johnson had defensive tendencies. He was in fact KO'd by man under 170 pounds, and floored by another man under the light heavyweight limit. He was also out boxed by men of the same size.

To complicate things further, Johnson did in fact quit, and dog it in fight when things did nto go his way early. See the Klondike and Hart fights.

Johnson today would be no better than 3rd in the division today. He would be completely out classed by both Klitschko's. He might win or lose to Povetkin. He might win or lose to the punchers like Haye. He might win, or lose a points decision to a very good technical boxer like Adamek.

8 OZ gloves would hurt him today more than help him. The more padding in the glove, the better for him.
Nice to see a balanced, unbiased ,objective post.
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Old 05-09-2011, 05:52 AM   #20
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Default Re: Jack Johnson today with 8 oz gloves - how would he do?

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mcvey;9603048]Nice to see a balanced, unbiased ,objective post.
This is an opinion. IMO Johnson is no better than 3rd today, and seeing that he had his hands full with losses and draws to the likes of Marvin Hart, Joe Choynski, Jack O'Brien, Klondike, Jim Batttling Johnson, Hank Griffin, el al, I think its plausible to think he could win and lose today vs. Povetkin, Adamek, Helinus, or Haye.

I do think Johnson would be the #1 cruiser weight today. The above is a mix of my opinion, and factual ring results by Johnson vs. men who would middles, light heavies, or curisers today based on their weight.

In case you haven't paid attention for the past 20+ years, the sub 205 pound fighters without a lot of power have pretty much been breed out of the heavyweight division's top gun position.

So deal with it.
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Old 05-09-2011, 06:06 AM   #21
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Default Re: Jack Johnson today with 8 oz gloves - how would he do?

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Originally Posted by Mendoza View Post
This is an opinion. IMO Johnson is no better than 3rd today, and seeing that he had his hands full with losses and draws to the likes of Marvin Hart, Joe Choynski, Jack O'Brien, Klondike, Jim Batttling Johnson, Hank Griffin, el al, I think its plausible to think he could win and lose today vs. Povetkin, Adamek, Helinus, or Haye.

I do think Johnson would be the #1 cruiser weight today. The above is a mix of my opinion, and factual ring results by Johnson vs. men who would middles, light heavies, or curisers today based on their weight.

In case you haven't paid attention for the past 20+ years, the sub 205 pound fighters without a lot of power have pretty much been breed out of the heavyweight division's top gun position.

So deal with it.
Is that why cruisers are continually challenging for the heavyweight title?
eg Gomez, Haye, and now Adamek?
Whatever you post on Jack Johnson is automatically discounted and considered redundant, and surplus to requirements by this Forum , don't you get that yet?
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Old 05-09-2011, 06:24 AM   #22
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Default Re: Jack Johnson today with 8 oz gloves - how would he do?

Curisers like Hide, Norris, and Gomez were easy KO victims at the hands of Vitali Klitschko. I predict Haye will be Ko'd by Wlad...though you seem to think Haye will win.

We know the size, weights, and records of men today who defeated, or made Johnson look bad. They were middles, light heavies, and curisers! The fact you cant extrapolate that Lenny is your problem, not mine.
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Old 05-09-2011, 07:00 AM   #23
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Default Re: Jack Johnson today with 8 oz gloves - how would he do?

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Curisers like Hide, Norris, and Gomez were easy KO victims at the hands of Vitali Klitschko. I predict Haye will be Ko'd by Wlad...though you seem to think Haye will win.

We know the size, weights, and records of men today who defeated, or made Johnson look bad. They were middles, light heavies, and curisers! The fact you cant extrapolate that Lenny is your problem, not mine.
You are overeaching yourself again Rainman, trying to use big words, and do joined up writing at the same time, you know you cannot multi- task.
I told you before, it is Lennie ,not Lenny .


Curiser,and Curiser, said Alice.
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Old 05-09-2011, 01:14 PM   #24
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Default Re: Jack Johnson today with 8 oz gloves - how would he do?

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Originally Posted by Mendoza View Post
This is an opinion. IMO Johnson is no better than 3rd today, and seeing that he had his hands full with losses and draws to the likes of Marvin Hart, Joe Choynski, Jack O'Brien, Klondike, Jim Batttling Johnson, Hank Griffin, el al, I think its plausible to think he could win and lose today vs. Povetkin, Adamek, Helinus, or Haye.

I do think Johnson would be the #1 cruiser weight today. The above is a mix of my opinion, and factual ring results by Johnson vs. men who would middles, light heavies, or curisers today based on their weight.

In case you haven't paid attention for the past 20+ years, the sub 205 pound fighters without a lot of power have pretty much been breed out of the heavyweight division's top gun position.

So deal with it.
If you are right ,then all of these historians must be wrong.

Corbett
Sharkey
Ted Kid Lewis
Eddie Futch
Ray Arcel
Tad Dorgan
Grantland Rice
WC Heinz
AJ Leibling
Damon Runyon
John L Sullivan
Dan Daniel
Jack Blackburn
Nat Loubet
Charley Rose
Graham Houston
Steve Farhood
Bert Sugar
Herbert Goldman
Denzil batchelor
Gilbert Odd
Finis Farr
Nat Fleischer

That's just a few,they are all wrong, and you are right.
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Old 05-09-2011, 01:45 PM   #25
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Default Re: Jack Johnson today with 8 oz gloves - how would he do?

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Originally Posted by mcvey View Post
If you are right ,then all of these historians must be wrong.

Corbett
Sharkey
Ted Kid Lewis
Eddie Futch
Ray Arcel
Tad Dorgan
Grantland Rice
WC Heinz
AJ Leibling
Damon Runyon
John L Sullivan
Dan Daniel
Jack Blackburn
Nat Loubet
Charley Rose
Graham Houston
Steve Farhood
Bert Sugar
Herbert Goldman
Denzil batchelor
Gilbert Odd
Finis Farr
Nat Fleischer

That's just a few,they are all wrong, and you are right.

All astute observers of the post 1970's heavyweight scene. And **** Farhood and Sugar.
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Old 05-09-2011, 03:42 PM   #26
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Default Re: Jack Johnson today with 8 oz gloves - how would he do?

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All astute observers of the post 1970's heavyweight scene. And **** Farhood and Sugar.
Corbett
Sharkey
Lewis
Daniel
Fleischer
Rose
Arcel
Dorgan
Blackburn
Did have the advantage of actually seeing Johnson fight in the flesh, so I think it is possible their opinions carry some gravitas.
If you want to **** Farhood and Sugar, be my guest if they have no objection why should I mind?
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Old 05-09-2011, 08:38 PM   #27
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Default Re: Jack Johnson today with 8 oz gloves - how would he do?

Poor McVey. And now that I have his attention, I'm asking him for the 3rd time if he cares to wager me on the Klitschko vs. Haye match. McVey thinks Haye will win. He must have an affinity for mouthy champs who were KO'd by men under 200 pounds.

So once again, I'll bet you on the match. The winner picks the loser's avatar photo and title for 3 months.
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Old 05-09-2011, 08:43 PM   #28
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Default Re: Jack Johnson today with 8 oz gloves - how would he do?

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Originally Posted by mcvey View Post
Corbett
Sharkey
Lewis
Daniel
Fleischer
Rose
Arcel
Dorgan
Blackburn
Did have the advantage of actually seeing Johnson fight in the flesh, so I think it is possible their opinions carry some gravitas.
If you want to **** Farhood and Sugar, be my guest if they have no objection why should I mind?
I've seen a **** of a lot more Johnson than they have seen of Holmes, Holyfield, Tyson, Lewis and the Klits.
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Old 05-09-2011, 08:47 PM   #29
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Default Re: Jack Johnson today with 8 oz gloves - how would he do?

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Originally Posted by Mendoza View Post
Poor McVey. And now that I have his attention, I'm asking him for the 3rd time if he cares to wager me on the Klitschko vs. Haye match. McVey thinks Haye will win. He must have an affinity for mouthy champs who were KO'd by men under 200 pounds.

So once again, I'll bet you on the match. The winner picks the loser's avatar photo and title for 3 months.
i'll take that bet.
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Old 05-09-2011, 08:52 PM   #30
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Default Re: Jack Johnson today with 8 oz gloves - how would he do?

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i'll take that bet.
I offered it to Mcvey. Picking an avatar for you would not mean much to me. However, I'm pretty sure there are others who would take you up on the offer.

A while back I had a similar bet with SuzieQ. After some initial sour grapes Suize honored his end of the deal. I put in a custom avatar for him on all the fighters he trashed. Let's see if Mcvey is willing to back his man on something that will only cost him a photo and a title on top of it if he losses.

Just to stir the pot a bit, I think Haye is just another mouthy British heavyweight who can't take a punch.
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