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Old 05-09-2011, 08:54 PM   #31
Mendoza
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Default Re: Jack Johnson today with 8 oz gloves - how would he do?

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I've seen a **** of a lot more Johnson than they have seen of Holmes, Holyfield, Tyson, Lewis and the Klits.
I suppose Mcvey has no comeback for that one.
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Old 05-09-2011, 09:01 PM   #32
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Default Re: Jack Johnson today with 8 oz gloves - how would he do?

He would a) suffer from culture shock or b) legally bang white women.
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Old 05-10-2011, 04:39 AM   #33
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Default Re: Jack Johnson today with 8 oz gloves - how would he do?

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I've seen a **** of a lot more Johnson than they have seen of Holmes, Holyfield, Tyson, Lewis and the Klits.
Houston
Futch
Arcel
Roberts
Farhood
Goldman
Sugar
Carpenter
Mullan
Gutteridge
Have all seen a **** of a lot more of those guys than you have, and from close up ringside,and ,since they've seen all the footage of Johnson that you have and, possibly some you haven't ,in the driving seat ,you definitley are not.
.
Futch for example ,worked with Louis,Holmes ,Bowe, Norton,etc, he rated Johnson in his top 3 of all time along with Ali and Louis.
But what does he know compared to you?
The all seeing, all knowing , Mr Negative.
ps How's that for a comeback Mendoza/Mendacity?

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Old 05-10-2011, 04:46 AM   #34
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Default Re: Jack Johnson today with 8 oz gloves - how would he do?

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Poor McVey. And now that I have his attention, I'm asking him for the 3rd time if he cares to wager me on the Klitschko vs. Haye match. McVey thinks Haye will win. He must have an affinity for mouthy champs who were KO'd by men under 200 pounds.

So once again, I'll bet you on the match. The winner picks the loser's avatar photo and title for 3 months.
From what I remember McVey picked Haye as a live underdog, not as the winner
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Old 05-10-2011, 05:02 AM   #35
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Default Re: Jack Johnson today with 8 oz gloves - how would he do?

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From what I remember McVey picked Haye as a live underdog, not as the winner
Correct P P, I give him a punchers chance,and if suitable odds are available I will have a small wager .
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Old 05-10-2011, 06:49 AM   #36
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Default Re: Jack Johnson today with 8 oz gloves - how would he do?

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Correct P P, I give him a punchers chance,and if suitable odds are available I will have a small wager .
This is funny. I love how quickly you change a story, particularly when pressed into something. In the thread tittled Is Wlad over the hill, you posted this on 5-1-11

Quote:
Yes they will ,but that is the nature of fans ,and the nature of the sport.

I see no signs that Wlad has deteriorated,but its a long time since he was in a real fight.
I'm betting Haye ,and by stoppage. I might have egg on my face the next morning ,but that's my pick - McVey
So, Haye by stoppage was your pick until I called you out....Changing your story once again I see.
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Old 05-10-2011, 09:08 AM   #37
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Default Re: Jack Johnson today with 8 oz gloves - how would he do?

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This is funny. I love how quickly you change a story, particularly when pressed into something. In the thread tittled Is Wlad over the hill, you posted this on 5-1-11



So, Haye by stoppage was your pick until I called you out....Changing your story once again I see.
It's still my pick do you have learning difficulties?
Wlad will be favourite, I therefore expect to get odds for my bet on Haye .Is that so hard to grasp Rainman?
Dont even think about calling out, you tried it once before ,and shit your trousers remember?
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Old 05-10-2011, 09:17 AM   #38
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Default Re: Jack Johnson today with 8 oz gloves - how would he do?

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I suppose Mcvey has no comeback for that one.
Read my reply Rainman.
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Old 05-10-2011, 12:24 PM   #39
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Default Re: Jack Johnson today with 8 oz gloves - how would he do?

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Originally Posted by mcvey View Post
Houston
Futch
Arcel
Roberts
Farhood
Goldman
Sugar
Carpenter
Mullan
Gutteridge
Have all seen a **** of a lot more of those guys than you have, and from close up ringside,and ,since they've seen all the footage of Johnson that you have and, possibly some you haven't ,in the driving seat ,you definitley are not.
.
So, Arcel and Sugar called Dempsey the greatest heavyweight ever. Do you subscribe to that ranking also? Rose had Langford #1 at heavyweight. Do you agree that a 5 foot 6 fighter was the greatest heavy ever to enter the ring?

And let's look at the term greatness. As usual, the boxing minds at work are less than rigorous in their terms and definitions. I guess this is necessary when taking in the majority of the audience for which they are writing. But let's assume greatness in this sense refers to "historical impact", "pioneering efforts" and such. Sure, Jack Johnson ranks among the greatest to ever step in a ring.

Now, if you want to add head-to-head abilities, championship resume... then things get dicey. Johnson had an inconsistent resume at the top. He didn't show great form against smaller and lesser fighters who in the modern era a supposedly great champion would be excoriated for struggling with. On film, I don't see a lot he has to offer that would overly-trouble top flight modern heavies, though admittedly the rules and equipment were different. Finally his competition on the available footage looks amateurish at times, almost embarrassingly so by modern standards. We really need to recalibrate our expectations for these fighters if the surviving footage is an accurate representation of their full fighting abilities.

So, we are left with two standards of excellence by which to measure the heavies. Do we make an aggregate them? Do we appease our elders and try to cheaply share their limelight by aping their opinions decades later? Do we entirely dismiss generations of fighters and fight observers by declaring them irrelevant? I don't know the answer to these questions really.

I have stated repeatedly that I consider Johnson an all-time great, possibly top 10 at heavyweight, despite the flaws in his career that I have noted. And how I come to this opinion is every bit as scientific as hacks like Farhood and Sugar, hopefully without the overdose of cheap, disingenuous sentimentality they bring to their efforts. At the end of the day, it is a judgement call.


This girlschool fight between you and Mendoza is fatiguing and embarrassing. Please leave me out of it.
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Old 05-10-2011, 01:36 PM   #40
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Default Re: Jack Johnson today with 8 oz gloves - how would he do?

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So, Arcel and Sugar called Dempsey the greatest heavyweight ever. Do you subscribe to that ranking also? Rose had Langford #1 at heavyweight. Do you agree that a 5 foot 6 fighter was the greatest heavy ever to enter the ring?

And let's look at the term greatness. As usual, the boxing minds at work are less than rigorous in their terms and definitions. I guess this is necessary when taking in the majority of the audience for which they are writing. But let's assume greatness in this sense refers to "historical impact", "pioneering efforts" and such. Sure, Jack Johnson ranks among the greatest to ever step in a ring.

Now, if you want to add head-to-head abilities, championship resume... then things get dicey. Johnson had an inconsistent resume at the top. He didn't show great form against smaller and lesser fighters who in the modern era a supposedly great champion would be excoriated for struggling with. On film, I don't see a lot he has to offer that would overly-trouble top flight modern heavies, though admittedly the rules and equipment were different. Finally his competition on the available footage looks amateurish at times, almost embarrassingly so by modern standards. We really need to recalibrate our expectations for these fighters if the surviving footage is an accurate representation of their full fighting abilities.

So, we are left with two standards of excellence by which to measure the heavies. Do we make an aggregate them? Do we appease our elders and try to cheaply share their limelight by aping their opinions decades later? Do we entirely dismiss generations of fighters and fight observers by declaring them irrelevant? I don't know the answer to these questions really.

I have stated repeatedly that I consider Johnson an all-time great, possibly top 10 at heavyweight, despite the flaws in his career that I have noted. And how I come to this opinion is every bit as scientific as hacks like Farhood and Sugar, hopefully without the overdose of cheap, disingenuous sentimentality they bring to their efforts. At the end of the day, it is a judgement call.


This girlschool fight between you and Mendoza is fatiguing and embarrassing. Please leave me out of it.
I mentioned a list of writers who rated Jack Johnson very highly , and asked if they were all wrong and you were right?

You riposted that many on my list of writers and historians had not seen as much of modern heavyweights as yourself .
I then gave you new a list of them, all of whom rate Jack Johnson very highly indeed, but have also had the advantage of seeing modern heavyweights close up and personal from ringside ,and in some cases actually trained them, and worked their corners.

My banter with you has nothing to do with Mendacity , leave you out of it? You jump in at every opportunity you are like twin echoes.
If your spelling wasn't appreciably better than Mendoza's ,I would think you were his doppelganger.

You seem to come on here just to demean every posters opinions and threads ,and you do it in a smug sneering manner. I know you have a sharp sense of humour, because on rare occasions you have treated us to it ,and its amusing ,and droll.

Sadly the vast majority of your posts are negative in the extreme, not only lacking in humour ,but any cohesive train of thought, just one liners knocking some boxer,or poster,or both.
I thought you could make a better case ,but I guess your forte is critical one liners, delivered in a sneering aside ,then a quick exit
.I couldn't care less where you rate Jack Johnson , I just think your style of ",stab from behind the curtain and retire " is fatiguing and embarrassing".

Last edited by mcvey; 05-10-2011 at 02:38 PM.
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Old 05-10-2011, 01:48 PM   #41
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Default Re: Jack Johnson today with 8 oz gloves - how would he do?

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I suppose Mcvey has no comeback for that one.
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Old 05-10-2011, 03:06 PM   #42
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Default Re: Jack Johnson today with 8 oz gloves - how would he do?

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I mentioned a list of writers who rated Jack Johnson very highly , and asked if they were all wrong and you were right?

You riposted that many on my list of writers and historians had not seen as much of modern heavyweights as yourself .
I then gave you new a list of them, all of whom rate Jack Johnson very highly indeed, but have also had the advantage of seeing modern heavyweights close up and personal from ringside ,and in some cases actually trained them, and worked their corners.
I'm trying to get to the germ of what you have to say. Ignoring the profound insights to my character, I will address the boxing issues here:

Do you agree with Arcel and Sugar that Dempsey was the greatest heavyweight of all time? Are you choosing which of their rankings to endorse based on the argument you wish to pursue?

Again, if I rank Johnson #11, is that blasphemous? Is that high enough for a heavyweight who had mediocre results against the modern equivalents of lightheavies and cruisers?
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Old 05-10-2011, 03:20 PM   #43
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Default Re: Jack Johnson today with 8 oz gloves - how would he do?

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This is just one of the angles I come from in thinking that Johnson was one of the very greatest fighters of all time at heavyweight - in terms of crossover success - the bigger gloves would allow for much greater power to be used in his punches - this would be increased tenfold with the use of good handwraps too - something which was also absent in the days of Johnson - plus plain old having the handcuffs removed aswell - and not fighting in front of crowds who might potentially lynch you if you decked a white guy to viciously aswell - I personally think Jack Johnson aswell as being a defensive genius was probably one of the most venomous punchers ever too actually - with all the advantages I've stated above I thnk Johnson would've probably KO'd all of his title challengers in a couple of rounds a peice each - plus also consider that he fought his bouts without the benefit of gumshields too - have you ever seen the way guys respond these days if they lose their gumshields??! They run a mile and start appealing to the ref to call time to put it back in!! Johnson simply fought without for round after round - but yeah , defensively aswell his already amazing ability would be showcased tenfold had he had the luxuries of the pillow case gloves they use these days - another extremely important thing to consider is that Johnson and fighters of his era generally - fought in the days before the advent of rubber soled shoes to - they used leather on the bottom of their shoes in them days!! My grandad who grew up in that era said to me they were horrendous - it was difficult keeping any grip just walking down the street in them let alone trying to dance and manouver around a canvas boxing ring - the fact that Johnson displayed pretty nifty footwork in these again suggests to me that with the benefit of todays footwear he be ABSOLUTELY brilliant around the ring in proper boxing shoes that we know today - so many little things to consider when looking at earlier eras - bottom line Johnson was absolutely a genius fighter as he was in his own time - we can only make guestimates as to how good he could've been if all the above cards were stacked in his favour - but my guess is that he would be street's ahead of most without the handicaps of the tiny gloves no wraps no gumshields poor footwear deaths threats at ringside handcuffs on very tightly etc

a few problems with your statement....

the fact is that it is easier to ko people with smaller gloves...
just watch any mma event and you will see guys who are not great punchers ko guys with 1 shot or whatever.

with 4 mma gloves you get more ko's then you get with 10 oz boxing gloves
this is why any gym in the world will make guys spar with larger gloves usually 16 oz or 14....reason is less ko's and damage happen with larger gloves...

ANYONE WHO HAS EVER SPARRED CAN TELL YOU ALL THIS....


i do agree a bit on the hand wraps thing....

bottom line in those guys the guys did not have the best punching techique and more importantly refs were much slower to stop fights
this is why you had less ko's happening
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Old 05-10-2011, 03:37 PM   #44
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Default Re: Jack Johnson today with 8 oz gloves - how would he do?

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Fought Silver and Golden Gloves, kickboxed and TKD. And just so you know I am missing two teeth (one recently) both of which I attribute to getting hit and kicked in the head over the years. In fact, I brought up the very issue of dental health in old timey boxers about a year ago on this very forum in a thread comparing old timers to new timers.

My point being, Johnson fought under the same conditions as tens of thousands of his contemporaries and I dare imagine his actual opponents. No tears for Marvin Hart's little mits and chicklets?
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Old 05-10-2011, 04:35 PM   #45
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Default Re: Jack Johnson today with 8 oz gloves - how would he do?

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I'm trying to get to the germ of what you have to say. Ignoring the profound insights to my character, I will address the boxing issues here:

Do you agree with Arcel and Sugar that Dempsey was the greatest heavyweight of all time? Are you choosing which of their rankings to endorse based on the argument you wish to pursue?

Again, if I rank Johnson #11, is that blasphemous? Is that high enough for a heavyweight who had mediocre results against the modern equivalents of lightheavies and cruisers?
I know nothing of your character ,only your posts.
I rate Dempsey at no 3. What that has to do with where the vast majority of writers, and trainers, rate Johnson escapes me.
Where you rate Johnson is up to you.His results as champion are not particularly illustrious , I think more of his form pre champion days.
Similarly I rate Liston in my top 10, based on his performances prior to winning the title.
Johnson beat plenty of big men, prior to gaining the title and ,contrary to what you think ,they were not all clods and cowhands.
You fasten on Johnson's results against Choynki when Johnson was pre prime and , no more than a light heavy himself,and his lethargic performance against O Brien, I mention he was not in shape for O Brien ,and knowing O Brien had zero chance of stopping him in their no dec 6 rounder, he cynically did little . You say I am making excuses .Have you ever read anywhere that Johnson trained for the O Brien fight , that he was even in half way decent condition? Johnson toyed with Burns , Burns chased O Brien out of the ring
.Let me ask you a question that requires an honest answer, if Johnson was in shape, and focused do you think O Brien would have a cat in hell's chance against him? YES OR NO?
Johnson's career cannot be separated from the fact that he was a hated man, he lost to Hart ,it was a debatable decision, several leading papers thought he was robbed ,several did not.
He was a lazy fighter ,content to do just enough, today he would have to up his work rate considerably to win fights.
He was knocked down by Ketchel,or was he? Film appears to show him falling before the punch lands,and there is no doubt he carried Ketchel,if you can't see that then I really am wasting my typing fingers.
I think Johnson's results before he was champion are enough to justify my rating of him ,you don't, fine.
Let us be clear, where I rate Johnson doesnt matter one iota to you, and neither does your ranking affect me,and in the long scheme of things a man who was killed 2 years before I was born is not that integral to our day to day existence now is he?
I have become more focused on Johnson since I came on this site ,chiefly because of the absurd lengths another poster goes to discredit him
.Personally I would sooner watch Dempsey ,Ali, Louis,Tyson ,anyday of the week.

Last edited by mcvey; 05-11-2011 at 05:33 AM.
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