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Old 05-10-2011, 05:40 PM   #46
Seamus
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Default Re: Jack Johnson today with 8 oz gloves - how would he do?

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Originally Posted by mcvey View Post
I know nothing of your character ,only your posts.
I rate Dempsey at no 3. What that has to do with where the vast majority of writers, and trainers, rate Johnson escapes me.
Where you rate Johnson is up to you.His results as champion are not particularly illustrious , I think more of his form pre champion days.
Similarly I rate Liston in my top 10, based on his performances prior to winning the title.
Johnson beat plenty of big men, prior to gaining the title and ,contrary to what you think ,they were not all clods and cowhands.
You fasten on Johnson's results against Choynki when Johnson was pre prime and , no more than a light heavy himself,and his lethargic performance against O Brien, I mention he was not in shape for O Brien ,and knowing O Brien had zero chance of stopping him in their no dec 6 rounder, he cynically did little . You say I am making excuses .Have you ever read anywhere that Johnson trained for the O Brien fight , that he was even in half way decent condition? Johnson toyed with Burns , Burns chased O Brien out of the ring
.Let me ask you a question that requires an honest answer, if Johnson was in shape, and focused do you think O Brien would have a cat in hell's chance against him? YES OR NO?
Johnson's career cannot be separated from the fact that he was a hated man, he lost to Hart ,it was a debatable decision, several leading papers thought he was robbed ,several did not.
He was a lazy fighter ,content to do just enough, today he would have to up his work rate considerably to win fights.
He was knocked down by Ketchel,or was he? Film appears to show him falling before the punch lands,and there is no doubt he carried Ketchel,if you can't see that then I really am wasting my typing fingers.
I think Johnson's results before he was champion are enough to justify my rating of him ,you don't, fine.
Let us be clear, where I rate Johnson doesnt matter one iota to you, and neither does your ranking affect me,and in the long scheme of things a man who was killed 2 years before I was born is not that integral to our day to day existence now is he?
I have become more focused on Johnson since I came on this site ,chiefly because of the absurd lengths another poster goes to to discredit him
.Personally I would sooner watch Dempsey ,Ali, Louis,Tyson ,anyday of the week.
It seems we agree on more than we disagree on here.

In regards to your questions... do I think a trained JJ would take O'Brien in a 6 rounder? Not sure. The only proof either way I have is the fact he could not accomplish the task when given the opportunity. Lennox Lewis also arrived unfocused to fights, which I also count against him.

I am not trying to discredit Johnson, only find what I might consider a rational estimation of his abilities in regards to his performances. I still consider him a great boxer and a greater man in regards to bravery and balls.
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Old 05-11-2011, 04:54 AM   #47
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Default Re: Jack Johnson today with 8 oz gloves - how would he do?

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Originally Posted by Seamus View Post
It seems we agree on more than we disagree on here.

In regards to your questions... do I think a trained JJ would take O'Brien in a 6 rounder? Not sure. The only proof either way I have is the fact he could not accomplish the task when given the opportunity. Lennox Lewis also arrived unfocused to fights, which I also count against him.

I am not trying to discredit Johnson, only find what I might consider a rational estimation of his abilities in regards to his performances. I still consider him a great boxer and a greater man in regards to bravery and balls.
I dont think Johnson was concerned about showing superiority over O Brien, since he was in no danger of being stopped, he was content to come in out of shape, and piss on the public.
I am surprised that the public,knowing both men's less than scintilllating styles, expected an exciting fight.
The rest of your post is fair comment ,imo.

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Johnson at 48 ,sparring with George Godfrey for his up coming fight with Pat Lester,a Tommy Burns protege. May 1926.

Johnson beat Lester on points over 15rds ,but lost his next fight a couple of weeks later to Bob Lawson when he retired after 7 rds.

Johnson did not, as has been suggested by a poster "dog it " he was fouled in the 7th, and could not continue.

"Finally, in April of 1926, construction was underway of a 20,000 seat prize fight arena in Nogales, Mexico and a date was set, Johnson was to fight a ranked heavyweight, Pat Lester. Johnson by all accounts won the fifteen round decision with relative ease and was a favorite with the crowd. But this was to prove the apex of his comeback effort. Three weeks later he was knocked down by Bob Lawson, a blow subsequently ruled a foul, the steam was finally gone from the talk of Jack Johnson's return to the ring."

Interestingly , Godfrey fought Lawson 4 months after Johnson ,and took a 6 rounds dec off him.

Forty eight years old Johnson , training for the Lester fight.


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Last edited by mcvey; 05-11-2011 at 05:11 AM.
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Old 05-11-2011, 05:48 AM   #48
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Default Re: Jack Johnson today with 8 oz gloves - how would he do?

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Originally Posted by Mendoza View Post
Like you said, Johnson's ring abilities are the most popular version of fools gold on the board. On film Johnson is semi lethargic with his feet, has a low guard, doesn't throw a lot of punches, and clinches a lot ( which would get him docked points in a modern era ). Some old timers would get a punchers chance, but Johnson was only a solid hitter. Jack Johnson had defensive tendencies. He was in fact KO'd by man under 170 pounds, and floored by another man under the light heavyweight limit. He was also out boxed by men of the same size.

To complicate things further, Johnson did in fact quit, and dog it in fight when things did not go his way early. See the Klondike and Hart fights. Larry Merchant would have ripped him a new one.

Johnson today would be no better than 3rd in the division today. He would be completely out classed by both Klitschko's. He might win or lose to Povetkin. He might win or lose to the punchers like Haye. He might win, or lose a points decision to a very good technical boxer like Adamek.

8 OZ gloves would hurt him today more than help him. The more padding in the glove, the better for him.
In the Klondike fight, Johnson had Klondike down in the first round ,he was saved by the bell,in the second round Klondike knocked Johnson down for the stoppage.A year AFTER this fight Johnson only scaled 168lbs for a fight with Jack McCormick.Whereas Klondike is described as.

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]Klondike
(John Haines)

BORN Fought mostly out of Chicago, IllinoisDIEDFebruary 1948; San Antonio, TexasHEIGHT 6-0WEIGHT 190-210 lbsKlondike was a strong, muscular fighter who could hit hard but was not a clever boxer
The Above is from Cyberzone

.
As Johnson filled out and matured he fared better against Klondike, a year later he drew with him over 20rds and, later in the year, he stopped him in 14 rds.

Johnson had the best of the first 10rds of his 20 rounder with Hart ,so your analysis is totally wrong.
Johnson retired against Bob Lawson after 7 rds in 1926 ,he had been fouled in the 7th and could not continue,he was 48 years old.
For you to accuse a fighter of lacking courage, is ironic , and given your recent history,it is shameful.

Last edited by mcvey; 05-11-2011 at 06:31 AM.
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Old 05-11-2011, 06:33 AM   #49
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Default Re: Jack Johnson today with 8 oz gloves - how would he do?

Mcvey, its time for you to STFU.

Johnson quit like a dog in the Klondike match, allowed Hart to out work him ( another form of letting the other guy win ) and as an older fighter quit on his stool without injury. These are facts. Deal with it. The shameful part is your never ending excuses.

You quote the CBZ on Klondike? Care to quote them on the Jim Battling Johnson match which they say is 20 rounds, and Jack quit inside the distance?
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Old 05-11-2011, 06:52 AM   #50
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Default Re: Jack Johnson today with 8 oz gloves - how would he do?

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Originally Posted by mcvey View Post
It's still my pick do you have learning difficulties?
Wlad will be favourite, I therefore expect to get odds for my bet on Haye .Is that so hard to grasp Rainman?
Dont even think about calling out, you tried it once before ,and shit your trousers remember?
I remember you disappeared for 3 months shortly after I asked for your email address. You never said where you were , then send me a PM when I am on vacation like a coward. Those are the facts Lenny!

You can't even risk an Internet bet over photo rights for 3 months. How the heck do you look at yourself in the mirror? You must be used to that egg on your face by now....

Ta-ta
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Old 05-11-2011, 07:58 AM   #51
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Default Re: Jack Johnson today with 8 oz gloves - how would he do?

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Originally Posted by highguard View Post
a few problems with your statement....

the fact is that it is easier to ko people with smaller gloves...
just watch any mma event and you will see guys who are not great punchers ko guys with 1 shot or whatever.

with 4 mma gloves you get more ko's then you get with 10 oz boxing gloves
this is why any gym in the world will make guys spar with larger gloves usually 16 oz or 14....reason is less ko's and damage happen with larger gloves...

ANYONE WHO HAS EVER SPARRED CAN TELL YOU ALL THIS....


i do agree a bit on the hand wraps thing....

bottom line in those guys the guys did not have the best punching techique and more importantly refs were much slower to stop fights
this is why you had less ko's happening
yes and no's with this - it's not easier to KO people with smaller gloves at all - its harder because you can't really load up with your full power anywhere near like you can with the increased protection that the bigger gloves allow - you hit anywhere near like you can with smaller gloves and you can multiply this tenfold when not using handwraps (especially so if you have dodgy hands)

making the comparison with MMA is not quite the same - because the skill set and the method of fighting is so completely different (and the guys generally have pretty awful chin's compared to in boxing - there are the odd guys obviously who are just great punchers in MMA too - but on the whole the guys look to have pretty poor chins and are usually in trouble when any kind of decent shot lands to the head - same with things like K1 aswell - when any boxer makes the crossover everyone is scared to death of their punching ability and their toughness - even not so great (and generally well well past it) boxers such as Ray Mercer

also larger gloves are used in sparring to lessen the damage such as cuts and bruises etc these are more like with the smaller gloves (not KO's)

ANYONE WHO HAS EVER SPARRED CAN TELL YOU ALL OF THIS

do agree partially about the referees not stopping fight too soon being a reason for less stoppage wins in those days - but I'd look at that on fight by fight basis
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Old 05-11-2011, 09:34 AM   #52
mcvey
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Default Re: Jack Johnson today with 8 oz gloves - how would he do?

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Originally Posted by Mendoza View Post
I remember you disappeared for 3 months shortly after I asked for your email address. You never said where you were , then send me a PM when I am on vacation like a coward. Those are the facts Lenny!

You can't even risk an Internet bet over photo rights for 3 months. How the heck do you look at yourself in the mirror? You must be used to that egg on your face by now....

Ta-ta
The dates on my PMs ,and the open letter have been confirmed, you were still in the US.
I wish you were in the UK now, you gutless coward ,I would beat you like I was your Daddy, if he would ever admit to spawning a piece of shit like you.
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