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Old 05-07-2011, 04:27 AM   #1
Stevie G
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Default Swap Muhammad Ali's title reigns around

The 22 year old Cassius Clay fights for the title against George Foreman in 1974. The 32 year old Muhammad Ali,of Zaire,battles the 1964 Sonny Liston. Take it from there.
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Old 05-07-2011, 05:11 AM   #2
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Default Re: Swap Muhammad Ali's title reigns around

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Originally Posted by Stevie G View Post
The 22 year old Cassius Clay fights for the title against George Foreman in 1974. The 32 year old Muhammad Ali,of Zaire,battles the 1964 Sonny Liston. Take it from there.
Ali wins both ,imo. Foreman would not hit the young Ali ,and 64 Sonny was allready more past it than the Ali of Zaire.
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Old 05-07-2011, 05:26 AM   #3
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Default Re: Swap Muhammad Ali's title reigns around

hmm as much as i like ali i think he looses one of those bouts.
young ali was indeed way to fast for george. but liston was no foreman with those wild punches. in 74 ali lost a lot of speed compared to the 60ties ali.
i think a 74 ali looses to 64 liston (alltough liston was past prime also)
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Old 05-07-2011, 06:20 AM   #4
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Default Re: Swap Muhammad Ali's title reigns around

I wouldn't put too much faith in the quitter Liston of Feb. '64, but he's still miles better than Zaire Foreman.
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Old 05-07-2011, 07:40 AM   #5
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Default Re: Swap Muhammad Ali's title reigns around

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I wouldn't put too much faith in the quitter Liston of Feb. '64, but he's still miles better than Zaire Foreman.
Why is that faded unmotivated Liston better than Zaire Foreman?

In Zaire Foreman was Peak, it's just that Ali fought the perfect cagey, awkward, strategic fight...
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Old 05-09-2011, 07:53 AM   #6
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Default Re: Swap Muhammad Ali's title reigns around

The '74 Ali would convincingly beat the '64 Liston. Ali would still have been too fast for Sonny,and too adaptable. The '64 Cassius Clay would stop George late in the contest. Probably on cuts.
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Old 05-09-2011, 09:46 AM   #7
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Default Re: Swap Muhammad Ali's title reigns around

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The '74 Ali would convincingly beat the '64 Liston. Ali would still have been too fast for Sonny, and too adaptable. The '64 Cassius Clay would stop George late in the contest. Probably on cuts.
Ali would not have been able to execute his rope a dope against Liston's jab, nor would he have attempted to. Foreman's big edge on Sonny was the efficiency with which he cut off the ring, where Liston could jab from long range. Sonny didn't have the necessary speed to cope with '74 Ali at distance though, so his inability to cut off the ring proficiently would cost him dearly.

Neither Liston or Foreman ever heard the bell ring for the championship rounds, while Ali may have been the supreme heavyweight master of the classic championship distance. (We didn't know this yet when he beat Sonny, but he certainly demonstrated it with Chuvalo and Terrell.)

In '64, he buckled Liston and drove him to the ropes at the outset of round three with a similar right to the one which dropped Sonny the following year in Lewiston. (I've always expressed the belief here that the knockdown in Maine was fully legitimate, as he came so close to doing it in Miami Beach. Liston's widow Gerry has stated that he told her it was a true knockdown punch, though not sufficient to force him down for a full count.) The hardest punches of Ali's career are supposed to have been the ones which knocked Foreman out in Kinshasa, and George does not appear to share the opinion of Bob Foster that Ali "couldn't bust a grape!" Kinshasa Ali takes Sonny out late.

For the 1964 edition to stop Foreman late on cuts is a realistic conclusion. George was prone to facial cuts and swelling, and he'd be dealing with a younger opponent than himself highly adept at inflicting this kind of damage. Then, the gulf in speed and stamina would become overwhelming.
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Old 05-09-2011, 11:38 AM   #8
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Default Re: Swap Muhammad Ali's title reigns around

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Ali would not have been able to execute his rope a dope against Liston's jab, nor would he have attempted to. Foreman's big edge on Sonny was the efficiency with which he cut off the ring, where Liston could jab from long range. Sonny didn't have the necessary speed to cope with '74 Ali at distance though, so his inability to cut off the ring proficiently would cost him dearly.

Neither Liston or Foreman ever heard the bell ring for the championship rounds, while Ali may have been the supreme heavyweight master of the classic championship distance. (We didn't know this yet when he beat Sonny, but he certainly demonstrated it with Chuvalo and Terrell.)

In '64, he buckled Liston and drove him to the ropes at the outset of round three with a similar right to the one which dropped Sonny the following year in Lewiston. (I've always expressed the belief here that the knockdown in Maine was fully legitimate, as he came so close to doing it in Miami Beach. Liston's widow Gerry has stated that he told her it was a true knockdown punch, though not sufficient to force him down for a full count.) The hardest punches of Ali's career are supposed to have been the ones which knocked Foreman out in Kinshasa, and George does not appear to share the opinion of Bob Foster that Ali "couldn't bust a grape!" Kinshasa Ali takes Sonny out late.

For the 1964 edition to stop Foreman late on cuts is a realistic conclusion. George was prone to facial cuts and swelling, and he'd be dealing with a younger opponent than himself highly adept at inflicting this kind of damage. Then, the gulf in speed and stamina would become overwhelming.
Pretty spot on.
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Old 05-09-2011, 11:44 AM   #9
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Default Re: Swap Muhammad Ali's title reigns around

Ali wins both. But the rope-a-dope shit aint gunna fly with a guy like Sonny Liston
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Old 05-09-2011, 12:33 PM   #10
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Default Re: Swap Muhammad Ali's title reigns around

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Ali wins both. But the rope-a-dope shit aint gunna fly with a guy like Sonny Liston
Ali would n't need to use that tactic against Liston. Different strokes etc.
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Old 05-10-2011, 07:18 AM   #11
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Default Re: Swap Muhammad Ali's title reigns around

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Why is that faded unmotivated Liston better than Zaire Foreman?

In Zaire Foreman was Peak, it's just that Ali fought the perfect cagey, awkward, strategic fight...
Well put !
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Old 05-10-2011, 08:01 AM   #12
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Default Re: Swap Muhammad Ali's title reigns around

Great thread .. not sure about Ali - Liston ... much closer than Clay - Foreman ... however if Al came in out of shape and fought so listlessly against Mildenberg, Terrell and Foley he might have been upset ... Chuvalo as well ... his second reign was filled with poor performances , Zaire and Manila aside ...
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Old 05-10-2011, 12:15 PM   #13
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Default Re: Swap Muhammad Ali's title reigns around

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Great thread .. not sure about Ali - Liston ... much closer than Clay - Foreman ... however if Al came in out of shape and fought so listlessly against Mildenberg, Terrell and Foley he might have been upset ... Chuvalo as well ... his second reign was filled with poor performances , Zaire and Manila aside ...
As we're talking about the Ali who fought George Foreman,he would put on a good performance against Liston.
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Old 05-10-2011, 12:30 PM   #14
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Default Re: Swap Muhammad Ali's title reigns around

I think '74 Ali would give '64 Liston a man sized beat down.
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Old 05-11-2011, 07:13 AM   #15
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Default Re: Swap Muhammad Ali's title reigns around

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I think '74 Ali would give '64 Liston a man sized beat down.
Don't know about a beat down,but a convincing,inside the distance victory,nonetheless.
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