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Old 05-07-2011, 09:36 AM   #1
kolcade4
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Default How much of a slickster was James Toney?

He seemed to have a very laid back kind of style, when fighting orthodox I notice how his left hand is lazily hanging down but having that said he was solid defensively IMO.Yet he seems extremely ring smart and will make his opponents miss and pay, he was an extremely effective counter puncher. He seemed to put combinations together very well when he worked behind his jab. Truly one my most favorite fighters and a pleasure to watch. Thoughts?
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Old 05-07-2011, 09:44 AM   #2
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Default Re: How much of a slickster was James Toney?

With his yo-yo weights, I think if he weren't extremely hard to touch flush, considering that he took on some real beasts while moving up in weight, he'd not have lasted nearly as long as he did. I believe a good, healthy Toney beats Hopkins (slightly favor him anyway) and am sorry that fight never happened at any time. He was a terrific natural. Was. Now he's a fat mess but, whatever. Damn slick. A natural slickness. Slicker than Caxapian pig poo, as they say. In Caxap. He's aesthetically one of my favorites too, by the way. I think it's beautiful when he's on and doing his thing.
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Old 05-07-2011, 09:48 AM   #3
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Default Re: How much of a slickster was James Toney?

I think thats a good assessment of his skills. Just a master technician that could sit in the pocket and fight anybody. You just dont see guys like that anymore that have the natural gifts that Toney had and his lack of respect for everyone else led him down a path of poor conditioning and preparation. You saw mediocre fighters hang with him throughout his career because they were in shape.
He spent the second half of his career doing nothing but sparring in the gym and thats why his timing and skills stayed pretty sharp, but he could have been a lot better.
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Old 05-07-2011, 09:52 AM   #4
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Default Re: How much of a slickster was James Toney?

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I think thats a good assessment of his skills. Just a master technician that could sit in the pocket and fight anybody. You just dont see guys like that anymore that have the natural gifts that Toney had and his lack of respect for everyone else led him down a path of poor conditioning and preparation. You saw mediocre fighters hang with him throughout his career because they were in shape.
He spent the second half of his career doing nothing but sparring in the gym and thats why his timing and skills stayed pretty sharp, but he could have been a lot better.
Yeah. ...He's been equal parts joy and frustration to me, as a fan.
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Old 05-07-2011, 10:06 AM   #5
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Default Re: How much of a slickster was James Toney?

I'd go along with everything that's been said so far. I also would've favoured Toney over Hopkins, if the '91 version of Toney and the '01 version of Bernard had been around at the same time. Whereas Hopkins learned his defensive game, Toney was a natural, I think he would've made B-Hop look a bit mechanical.

I think Toney had a great career, but I agree with lefthook that he should have achieved more. It was indeed his lack of respect for opponents and his complacency with regard to training that meant he got dragged into close fights by vastly inferior fighters, and this blights his record a little.

If James had stayed at 168 after Roy moved to 175, he could've dominated that division for years, he was infinitely more talented than anyone else who's ever plied their trade at smw. I very much doubt that Joe Calzaghe would ever have stepped up to face someone like James, but that would've been a dream fight for me, one of those fights that reaffirms the truth about boxing - perspiration does not beat inspiration and the artisan does not beat the artist.

My favourite fights are McCallum 1 (clear win for James IMO), Nunn (when will this myth that Nunn won every second of every round until the stoppage ever die? JT had clearly turned the fight around and won the previous 3 rounds), and of course Jirov, the last round of which is my favourite round of any fight ever.

I hope he will always be remembered as what he was - a fighter with wonderful skills and a truly iron chin.
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Old 05-07-2011, 10:19 AM   #6
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Default Re: How much of a slickster was James Toney?

I prolly rate James Toney on my personal ATG top-12 fighters list FO SHOW!

Toney is one of the best I have ever seen fight live; not just film or TV...

His defense at his best was a piece of art. His chin is carved from MT. Rushmore...


Toneys diet and laziness is his worst enemy...

Toney is a future "Haller" all the way, Jose...

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Old 05-07-2011, 10:34 AM   #7
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Default Re: How much of a slickster was James Toney?

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I prolly rate James Toney on my personal ATG top-12 fighters list FO SHOW!

Toney is one of the best I have ever seen fight live; not just film or TV...

His defense at his best was a piece of art. His chin is carved from MT. Rushmore...


Toneys diet and laziness is his worst enemy...

Toney is a future "Haller" all the way, Jose...

MR.BILL
You may have to add a preemptive "STFU Bodhi" to this post.
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Old 05-07-2011, 11:10 AM   #8
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Default Re: How much of a slickster was James Toney?

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I prolly rate James Toney on my personal ATG top-12 fighters list FO SHOW!
Cool, so Dave Tiberi is in your top 8, Drake Thadzi top 5?
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Old 05-07-2011, 11:44 AM   #9
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Default Re: How much of a slickster was James Toney?

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Cool, so Dave Tiberi is in your top 8, Drake Thadzi top 5?
Toney was in piss poor condition against Tiberi(his fault) but even as a Toney fan I admit that he clearly lost that fight and even scored it for Tiberi. The Thadzi fight is closer than people make it. I've seen most of it but will watch it in it's entirety sometime soon and score it sometime later.
Still, Toney was his worst enemy and shouldn't had close fights with them in the first place.

Toney was/is a joy to look at as a purist and even against Reed you saw he still had a bit of his former slickness and ring smarts. The guy had talent and people may say, "He could've achieved more" they might be right but what he's done is impressive regardless. MW, SMW, and CW. A former MW moving up to HW being competitive against huge guys like Peter(beat him the first fight I may add). 1st fight at HW he faces an old but still good ATG in Holyfield. Has wins over a prime Nunn and Mccallum as well. Showed the best defense against a prime Jones despite losing in a one-sided manner. He is truly a great and would face anyone. Fighters like Calzaghe and Mayweather(post 135) should have to a page from Toney about willingness to fight the best around.
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Old 05-07-2011, 11:53 AM   #10
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Default Re: How much of a slickster was James Toney?

He had excellent upper body movement,and his ability to mix his offense with defense - all the while standing directly in front of his opponent - was certainly admirable and,at it's best,could be beautiful to watch.You won't find many fighters who feel as comfortable on the ropes as Toney was.He could park himself in one position of the ring,with his back against the ropes and willingly spend the entire fight there.For somebody as lazy as him,it allows him to conserve energy as well as pick his opponent apart.


I still don't particularly like Toney,mind you.I feel,as excellent a technician as he was,he was very limited as a fighter.If you provided him with a stationary target and fought within his range the entire time,you would have tremendous difficulty in beating him.But when you gave him movement,some angles to deal with,he usually struggled.And as Hopkins was brought up,this,I feel,is what would give Hopkins the edge in a fight between the two.Hopkins fights to his strengths and would stay clear of engaging Toney at close range.Too smart and too intelligent a fighter for someone like Toney.



Quote:
Originally Posted by techks View Post
1st fight at HW he faces an old but still good ATG in Holyfield.


Holyfield was already shot to pieces not even a credible win at that point in his career.


And it wasn't Toney's first fight as a heavyweight,either.
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Old 05-07-2011, 11:59 AM   #11
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Default Re: How much of a slickster was James Toney?

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Originally Posted by techks View Post
Toney was in piss poor condition against Tiberi(his fault) but even as a Toney fan I admit that he clearly lost that fight and even scored it for Tiberi. The Thadzi fight is closer than people make it. I've seen most of it but will watch it in it's entirety sometime soon and score it sometime later.
Still, Toney was his worst enemy and shouldn't had close fights with them in the first place.

Toney was/is a joy to look at as a purist and even against Reed you saw he still had a bit of his former slickness and ring smarts. The guy had talent and people may say, "He could've achieved more" they might be right but what he's done is impressive regardless. MW, SMW, and CW. A former MW moving up to HW being competitive against huge guys like Peter(beat him the first fight I may add). 1st fight at HW he faces an old but still good ATG in Holyfield. Has wins over a prime Nunn and Mccallum as well. Showed the best defense against a prime Jones despite losing in a one-sided manner. He is truly a great and would face anyone. Fighters like Calzaghe and Mayweather(post 135) should have to a page from Toney about willingness to fight the best around.
Oh, he sooo beat Peter in that first fight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Goyourownway View Post
He had excellent upper body movement,and his ability to mix his offense with defense - all the while standing directly in front of his opponent - was certainly admirable and,at it's best,could be beautiful to watch.You won't find many fighters who feel as comfortable on the ropes as Toney was.He could park himself in one position of the ring,with his back against the ropes and willingly spend the entire fight there.For somebody as lazy as him,it allows him to conserve energy as well as pick his opponent apart.


I still don't particularly like Toney,mind you.I feel,as excellent a technician as he was,he was very limited as a fighter.If you provided him with a stationary target and fought within his range the entire time,you would have tremendous difficulty in beating him.But when you gave him movement,some angles to deal with,he usually struggled.And as Hopkins was brought up,this,I feel,is what would give Hopkins the edge in a fight between the two.Hopkins fights to his strengths and would stay clear of engaging Toney at close range.Too smart and too intelligent a fighter for someone like Toney.
I think Hopkins/Toney would be close. But, I think I favor Hopkins for the reasons you stated. He'd be turning him. Making him struggle.
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Old 05-07-2011, 12:14 PM   #12
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Default Re: How much of a slickster was James Toney?

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Holyfield was already shot to pieces not even a credible win at that point in his career.


And it wasn't Toney's first fight as a heavyweight,either.
It's easy to say that it wasn't a credible win now but Holyfield was the favorite and yes that wasn't Toney's first fight as a HW I made a mistake, smartass. His first fight at HW was after Steve Little. Holyfield was shot I do admit but it was a top performance from Toney and Holy did have his moments such as tagging him with a few left hooks.

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Oh, he sooo beat Peter in that first fight.
Yes Toney beat him. Peter did however win the rematch clearly.
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Old 05-07-2011, 12:27 PM   #13
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Default Re: How much of a slickster was James Toney?

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It's easy to say that it wasn't a credible win now but Holyfield was the favorite and yes that wasn't Toney's first fight as a HW I made a mistake, smartass. His first fight at HW was after Steve Little. Holyfield was shot I do admit but it was a top performance from Toney and Holy did have his moments such as tagging him with a few left hooks.



Yes Toney beat him. Peter did however win the rematch clearly.
I barely even count the rematch for Peter. I mean, he won clearly, yes, but I mean count it as much of an accomplishment. That version of Toney was WAY off, from what I remember. He didn't seem to have his timing, coordination, speed, reflexes, whatever. It was terrible. And because of what Peter's done since, or hasn't done rather, I find it hard to believe is wasn't more Toney being bad than Sam being good.
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Old 05-07-2011, 12:30 PM   #14
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Default Re: How much of a slickster was James Toney?

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Cool, so Dave Tiberi is in your top 8, Drake Thadzi top 5?
WTF? We all have bad or lousy nights for cryin' out loud.... Again, Jesus, Toney was weight-drained and limp as a dead man's dick against Tiberi and Toney looked like he just crawled outta bed against Thadzi yrs later....


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Old 05-07-2011, 12:33 PM   #15
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Default Re: How much of a slickster was James Toney?

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WTF? We all have bad or lousy nights for cryin' out loud.... Again, Jesus, Toney was weight-drained and limp as a dead man's dick against Tiberi and Toney looked like he just crawled outta bed against Thadzi yrs later....


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