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Old 05-08-2011, 06:34 PM   #16
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Default Re: Jeffries admits he could never beat Jack Johnson

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Originally Posted by Seamus View Post
So the article was some sort of journalistic scam? And so now all articles from pre-taped fights are to be similarly disbelieved or only those that cast a less than favorable light on the anointed combatants?
Are you arguing that you have found an article that should get greater distibution?

If so then I will help in any way I can.

It will get a thread, and exposure.
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Old 05-08-2011, 07:07 PM   #17
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Default Re: Jeffries admits he could never beat Jack Johnson

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Are you arguing that you have found an article that should get greater distibution?

If so then I will help in any way I can.

It will get a thread, and exposure.
No, I thought you possessed one that you wanted to distibute. If so please give me the link or text. My French ain't half bad, either, so that would be fine.
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Old 05-08-2011, 07:20 PM   #18
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Default Re: Jeffries admits he could never beat Jack Johnson

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You just could not resist. First off, one event has nothing to do with the other. Jeffries said if he was younger, he would have won. That has everything to do with the thread before you bait things.



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Now off to the tangent you have created. As for the fight between Jack and Jim Johnson, as I told you there is a difference of opinions on the schedule length of the fight. The two best historians I know, Mike Delisa owner and editor of the CBZ, and Tracy Calis men who put in 1,000's of hours of research say 20 rounds, and their site says 20. Other reports say 10. Its open to interpretation. The CBZ as a soruce is far better than Box Rec.
Yeah, i'm asking you why you totally dismiss multiple primary sources that describe the fight as a ten round fight based upon the fact there is no proof that the writers were ringside

BUT

entertain equivalent reports that you ACKNOWLEDGE are wire reports because they indicate Jim did better.

See - I think you believe whatever the **** you like.

What are the primary sources these "historians" provide to back their positions? Because i've provided numerous.

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Now I ask you, based on the detailed report by the N.Y. Times which I can repost, who do you think deserved to win?
Dunno. Never my argument. Jim? Don't give a ****. I think Jack Johnson is grossly overated. You're negotiating with the wrong guy. I just think you're a full on bullshitter.

What distance was it fought over?
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Old 05-09-2011, 04:10 AM   #19
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Default Re: Jeffries admits he could never beat Jack Johnson

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No, I thought you possessed one that you wanted to distibute. If so please give me the link or text. My French ain't half bad, either, so that would be fine.
One of many reports in the French media re the Jack Johnson-Jim Johnson fight.
Le Figaro Decembre 19, 1913.
"Le celebre et magnifique boxeur negre Jack Johnson, que lit a Paris d'assez nombreux et longs sejours paraitra se soir pour la premiere fois sur la ring, rancais. Cette apparation a sensation aura lieu au Premierland. Jack Johnson s'y rencontrera en un combat en dix reprises de trois minutes contre le negre Jim Johnson"
BTw I have not seen it advertised as a World title fight.
This was originally posted by Matt Donnellon and ignored by Mendoza, Matt then decided he was wasting his time, and bowed out of the thread.
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Old 05-09-2011, 04:25 AM   #20
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Default Re: Jeffries admits he could never beat Jack Johnson

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One of many reports in the French media re the Jack Johnson-Jim Johnson fight.
Le Figaro Decembre 19, 1913.
"Le celebre et magnifique boxeur negre Jack Johnson, que lit a Paris d'assez nombreux et longs sejours paraitra se soir pour la premiere fois sur la ring, rancais. Cette apparation a sensation aura lieu au Premierland. Jack Johnson s'y rencontrera en un combat en dix reprises de trois minutes contre le negre Jim Johnson"
BTw I have not seen it advertised as a World title fight.
This was originally posted by Matt Donnellon and ignored by Mendoza, Matt then decided he was wasting his time, and bowed out of the thread.

Seems hard to argue against, i would have thought.

Very interesting though that it wasnt advertised as a world title fight.
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Old 05-09-2011, 06:00 AM   #21
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Default Re: Jeffries admits he could never beat Jack Johnson

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Originally Posted by mcvey View Post
One of many reports in the French media re the Jack Johnson-Jim Johnson fight.
Le Figaro Decembre 19, 1913.
"Le celebre et magnifique boxeur negre Jack Johnson, que lit a Paris d'assez nombreux et longs sejours paraitra se soir pour la premiere fois sur la ring, rancais. Cette apparation a sensation aura lieu Au Premier land. Jack Johnson Say encountered en UN combat en Dix reprises DE trios minutes contra Le negre Jim Johnson"
BTW I have not seen it advertised as a World title fight.
This was originally posted by Matt Donnell on and ignored by Mendoza, Matt then decided he was wasting his time, and bowed out of the thread.

Scare blue!

Let me guess, you will quickly disregard the French media when Jack Johnson told then that Langford floored him and they printed it.

Sources vary on the lenght of the fight. But what does not vary is Jim Battling Johnson was in fact a journeyman by record, who according to any detailed report you can find was the better.

Ironic, it Jack Johnson were white, and Jim were black, liberal writers who really do not know a lot about boxing would use this match as an example of racism as the decision most certainly stunk.
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Old 05-09-2011, 06:05 AM   #22
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Default Re: Jeffries admits he could never beat Jack Johnson

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Perhaps I missed the excitement of that debate, but the NYT report was pretty emphatic that Battling Jim got the better of Lil Arthur and that the legendary arm injury occurred in the final 2 minute of the fight... if memory serves.
This is true. The hilarious part is the crowd wanted their money back as soon as they learned the match was ruled a draw! How do you say robbery in French? I ponder what Larry Merchant would have said if he were alive then this farce happened

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Old 05-09-2011, 06:08 AM   #23
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Default Re: Jeffries admits he could never beat Jack Johnson

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This is true. The hilarious part is the crowd wanted their money back as soon as they learned the match was ruled a draw! How do you say robbery in French? I ponder what Larry Merchant would have said if he were alive then this farce happened

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Just how the NY Times who did not have a reporter present at the fight ,would know in which round Johnson broke his arm escapes me.
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Old 05-09-2011, 06:14 AM   #24
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Default Re: Jeffries admits he could never beat Jack Johnson

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Originally Posted by Mendoza View Post
Scare blue!

Let me guess, you will quickly disregard the French media when Jack Johnson told then that Langford floored him and they printed it.

Sources vary on the lenght of the fight. But what does not vary is Jim Battling Johnson was in fact a journeyman by record, who according to any detailed report you can find was the better.

Ironic, it Jack Johnson were white, and Jim were black, liberal writers who really do not know a lot about boxing would use this match as an example of racism as the decision most certainly stunk.
Scare Blue ???
A little tip for you Rain man,its Sacre' Bleu!, dont try French you have enough trouble ,trying to write English

The link is from a newspaper published at the time of the event. Matt posted it you dismissed it, as we all knew you would. You are hilarious at times.
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Old 05-09-2011, 06:15 AM   #25
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Default Re: Jeffries admits he could never beat Jack Johnson

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Mendoza says: This is true. The hilarious part is the crowd wanted their money back as soon as they learned the match was ruled a draw! How do you say robbery in French? I ponder what Larry Merchant would have said if he were alive then this farce happened


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Just how the NY Times who did not have a reporter present at the fight ,would know in which round Johnson broke his arm escapes me.
Are you saying the reporters there who wired what happened were wrong in their easement of what happened in the ring Petty desperate. As I told you there is a dandy of a read in Unforgivable Blackness on this fight that doesn't paint your idol as the winner...far from it.
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Old 05-09-2011, 06:55 AM   #26
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Default Re: Jeffries admits he could never beat Jack Johnson

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Are you saying the reporters there who wired what happened were wrong in their easement of what happened in the ring Petty desperate. As I told you there is a dandy of a read in Unforgivable Blackness on this fight that doesn't paint your idol as the winner...far from it.
How to respond to someone who writes in tongues ?

" When the two men met at the Nouveau Cirque on December 19th, nothing much happened for two rounds. Both were counter punchers ,and Battling Jim seemed especially wary.
In the third, the champion launched an attack that sent the younger man reeling.Then for no apparent reason, he pulled back.There were cries of "Fake"! Some customers called for their money back.

In fact the champion had fractured his left forearm slamming the challengers head and had to fight the next seven rounds with just one hand,clinching when he could.at the end it was the younger man who was breathing hard.The referee declared the bout a draw.The crowd unaware of Johnson's injury hissed both men".

"Unforgivable Blackness ". Geoffrey C Ward.

I beleive this bears out Johnson's contention that he broke his arm, in the third round.
Objective posters would take into account that Johnson was 35 years old and, had not fought in a year and a half when he met Battling Jim, but of course no one would expect you to.
Battling Jim was no world beater ,but he was big, strong ,and a hard hitter.
When he challenged Johnson ,he had a draw with Joe Jeannette to his credit,and ,7 months after drawing with Johnson ,he drew with Sam Langford, and Joe Jeannette again, a little later he kod Arthur Pelkey, beat Joe Jeannette, drew with, and kod Jeff Clark ,and again drew with Langford.

N . B. No one has ever suggested that either Jeannette ,Langford, or Clark had broken arms when they drew with Battling Jim.

P.S. If you think the account of the fight between Battling Jim and Jack Johnson ,paints Jack in a bad light.Given Johnson's age , condition ,and broken arm, what does the retirement of 28 years old Vitali Klitschko against light hitting ,30lbs lighter,7inches shorter,Chris Byrd, in a fight he was winning, say about your idol Vitali ?????

P S The referee has just stopped this exchange , because ,in his opinion you are in no position to defend yourself.

Last edited by mcvey; 05-09-2011 at 10:37 AM.
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Old 05-09-2011, 11:07 AM   #27
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Default Re: Jeffries admits he could never beat Jack Johnson

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Originally Posted by Mendoza View Post

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Are you saying the reporters there who wired what happened were wrong in their easement of what happened in the ring Petty desperate. As I told you there is a dandy of a read in Unforgivable Blackness on this fight that doesn't paint your idol as the winner...far from it.
Since Battling Jim Johnson had the following results.
3 draws with a prime Joe Jeannette
1 win over Jeannette
3 draws with a prime Sam Langford
1 draw with Jeff Clark
1 ko win over Jeff Clark
1 ko win over Arthur Pelkey
1 decision win over Tom Cowler
1 decision win over Tony Ross
1 ko win over Bill Tate
1 ko win over Black Bill.
I think we can take it that he was superior as a title challenger to Jack Munroe ,and Jack Finnegan , both of whom received title shots against a prime Jim Jeffries.
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Old 05-09-2011, 11:23 AM   #28
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Default Re: Jeffries admits he could never beat Jack Johnson

Johnson would have never let a white boy beat him.



Atleast not without some cold hard cash and pardon for breaking the Mann act.
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Old 05-09-2011, 12:20 PM   #29
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Default Re: Jeffries admits he could never beat Jack Johnson

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Originally Posted by mcvey View Post
How to respond to someone who writes in tongues ?

" When the two men met at the Nouveau Cirque on December 19th, nothing much happened for two rounds. Both were counter punchers ,and Battling Jim seemed especially wary.
In the third, the champion launched an attack that sent the younger man reeling.Then for no apparent reason, he pulled back.There were cries of "Fake"! Some customers called for their money back.

In fact the champion had fractured his left forearm slamming the challengers head and had to fight the next seven rounds with just one hand,clinching when he could.at the end it was the younger man who was breathing hard.The referee declared the bout a draw.The crowd unaware of Johnson's injury hissed both men".

"Unforgivable Blackness ". Geoffrey C Ward.
Quoting Ward hardly gives your argument the credence of impartiality. Unforgiveable Blackness was the biggest jizzfest I have encountered since Anabelle Chong left the business.

I still see no reason to take the Figaro article over that of the NYT, given the depth of specificity in the latter. It would have to be a complete fabrication at that point.
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Old 05-09-2011, 12:33 PM   #30
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Default Re: Jeffries admits he could never beat Jack Johnson

Who knows what Jeffries said after the fight especially because none of us were on that train ride. What is rumoured to have been said is that Jeffries was very gracious in defeat of Johnson. Now, did he say that he would have "never reached him in a million years," as was the quote? Again none of us know. Jeffries might have even said that he could have beaten Johnson years earlier if they fought when he was champion. Maybe he said he might have done a lot better as a younger man, but why then is it more common among senior boxing enthusiasts and writers that Jeffries was taken back by Johnson's ability and boxing skills. Apparently more than one person on that train reported Jeffries speaking fondly of Johnson.
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